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PostPosted: Sun Apr 01, 2012 4:05 pm 
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Sorry, I could only locate a partial clip of the segment. Basically, a solo sailor capsized and turtled his H17 and had to radio for help. They got the boat righted but shortly afterwards the skipper went into shock brought on by exhaustion and exposure to the 60 degree water. Thank Goodness the lifeguards were there to rescue him (the man's ok).....

http://www.weather.com/weather/videos/on-tv-43/lifeguard-585/lifeguard-capsized-catamaran-26370#loc=43/585/26387


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PostPosted: Sun Apr 01, 2012 7:23 pm 
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I am sealing my mast tomorrow!

I have never flipped my 18 but after seeing that I think I will practice it this summer.

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Sail # 10505 or 277
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PostPosted: Mon Apr 02, 2012 5:26 am 
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Yeah - 18's with comp tips seem to not like to lie on their sides for long. Mine goes turtle in less than 20 seconds. There's a thread here that goes over it in detail.

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PostPosted: Mon Apr 02, 2012 7:14 am 
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What about with out a comp-tip. I have two masts one with a comp-tip and one without. I use the one without most cause its in perfect shape. I am saving the other one for when I go to nationals haha.

So would the non comp-tip mast give me a few more seconds before it turtles?

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PostPosted: Mon Apr 02, 2012 9:00 am 
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Location: Jersey Shore
The all aluminm mast on the 18 (non-comptip) would be more bouyant than the comptip mast. It has more volume at the mast tip due to the non-tapered design.

However, regardless of which mast you use, being quick about starting the righting process is extremely important when it comes to preventing turtling. Once you've assessed that everyone is safely accounted for, you need to quickly climb onto the hull and start leaning back, even if that means just having one person grab the dolphin striker and lean out while the other person unties the righting line. If you spend a lot of time floating around in the water or fumbling with the righting line, the boat will turtle regardless of which mast you use.

Also, the type of capsize and the conditions can play a large factor in how quickly the boat turtles. In a high-wind pitchpole, the boat can turtle very quickly as the wind against the tramp tends to drive the mast down. In a moderate wind knock-down, you may have several minutes before the mast starts to really go under.

sm


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PostPosted: Mon Apr 02, 2012 10:32 am 
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Image

(Click to enlarge.)

Done quite a bit of poking into this. The image above is from a spreadsheet that an engineering buddy did.

With what we came up with, @ 50 lbs of mast float at the tip is needed in a 20 mph wind to keep from turtling. Gallon jugs only displace or float @ 8 lbs. Draw your own conclusions about gallon jugs...

Solutions:

1. Shroud extenders: viewtopic.php?f=23&t=2389
Image

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=655COFngiQA&feature=related[/youtube]
2. Hobie Bob
3. Mast float buoyancy bag. Like this, bottom of page (although it does only @ 18 lbs floatation): http://www.apsltd.com/c-4686-buoyancybags.aspx

The Hobie Baby Bob displaces about 32 lbs, I believe. Of course, this assumes no additional weight from water in the mast.

This is not a problem for catamarans only...


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PostPosted: Mon Apr 02, 2012 12:04 pm 
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I really like the idea of shroud extenders to help right the Hobie. I hadn't seen or heard of this before.

Is anyone doing this? Does it work as advertised?

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1979 Hobie 16 "Orange Crusher"
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PostPosted: Mon Apr 02, 2012 12:29 pm 
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ASDASC wrote:
I really like the idea of shroud extenders to help right the Hobie. I hadn't seen or heard of this before.

Is anyone doing this? Does it work as advertised?


There have been discussions regarding shroud extenders on these forums before, you might want to do a quick search for some detailed discussions.

There are some "issues" with shroud extenders.

First off, the shroud extender really won't do anything to prevent you from going turtle, and it definitely won't help you to right from the turtled position. Nor is it a substitute for a properly sealed mast.

Shroud extenders REQUIRE that your mast base be mechanically linked to the mast step. In the case of boats with capive ball mast steps (Hobie 17, 20, tiger) this means sailing with the mast step pin in. For boats without captive mast steps (Hobie 14, 16, 18) this means you need a system to hold the mast base to the mast step. This consists of a piece of wire that is shackled to the mast base and wraps around the dolphin striker. If you don't link the mast base to the mast step, it is highly likely that your mast base will pop off the mast step when you pull the shroud and you'll dismast.

The other issue is that if you use the shroud extender while sailing single handed, after you right the boat, you somehow have to manage to re-insert the pin back into the shroud on the leeward side of the boat without flipping over again. This would not be easy to do in strong winds.

Does the system work as advertised? Yes. But it's got some things about it that probably make some of the other righting assist systems a little better.

sm


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PostPosted: Mon Apr 02, 2012 12:43 pm 
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Location: Tri-Cities, WA
Making sure your mast is sealed can not be over stated, especially when sailing in high winds. I have pitchpoled at such speed that the boat IMMEDIATELY turtles. And being a soloer that is not necessarily a bad thing. It gives me time to get my act together, uncleat sheets and tracks (& preposition the main track car), make sure hiking stick is not fouled, then pick the leeward hull to stand on. The only time I was unable to self rescue from a turtle was when there were closely packed 4' - 5' waves and I could not stay ballanced long enough on the leeward hull to get the windward hull to come up. This lasted about 20 minutes, I was getting really tired. Fortunately, a windsurfer came to my aid and our combined weight was enough to get the boat on its side quickly and righted immediately after that. If my mast wasn't well sealed we wouldn't been able to do it. :wink:


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PostPosted: Mon Apr 02, 2012 12:47 pm 
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All good points, I guess thinking it thru a little further I should have figured them out. Especially the de-masting.

I was assuming you weren't turtle yet. I haven't yet flipped my H16 yet, but plan to this summer as I get more confidence. If not, I will do it intentionally to see if I can right it.

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1979 Hobie 16 "Orange Crusher"
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PostPosted: Mon Apr 02, 2012 2:05 pm 
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One thing that hasn't been mentioned how to get out of a turtle. It is easy to do by standing on the lee hull near the stern pulling on the righting line. The bows come up and the boat flops over on the side. At that point the wind is blowing on the top of the tramp which prevents turtling. All that is assuming the mast is not leaking. In the Weather channel clip, they didn't try getting to the stern to get out of the turtle. If the mast was leaking, it probably wouldn't come up but that should have been tried.

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PostPosted: Tue Apr 03, 2012 3:20 pm 
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Location: Panama City Beach, FL
I have been using a baby bob on my 1982 H16 for years and am not embarassed about it.

Since I solo most of the time, I don't want to turtle if I can help it since the top of the mast may end up hitting the bottom and get either bent or stuck in the mud/sand. Baby bob also keeps the top of the mast higher out of the water after a capsize and therefore makes it easier to upright.

Even in a pitchpole, the baby bob helps to keep the boat from turtling since the boat usually ends up on it's side.

Image

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PostPosted: Tue Apr 03, 2012 7:48 pm 
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Tim H16 wrote:
I have been using a baby bob on my 1982 H16 for years and am not embarassed about it.


I don't understand why more people don't use the Bob. I get that some people have legitimate sailing reasons to avoid using it, but if you're just worried about how you'll look? Come on. What's more embarrassing? The dude in the video? Or Tim H16 in his picture?

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PostPosted: Tue Apr 03, 2012 8:38 pm 
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Quote:
What's more embarrassing? The dude in the video? Or Tim H16 in his picture?
Amen to that.
Quote:
Since I solo most of the time, I don't want to turtle if I can help it since the top of the mast may end up hitting the bottom and get either bent or stuck in the mud/sand.
Me either. Masts tend to cost some to replace.

Shroud extenders I mentioned because they solve the upper hull problem (d h in the sketch). That's all. It's a solution to getting the weight of the upper hull going back the right way. Problem is you've got to get to the release pin. If you get to the pin before the mast touches the water, then good. If not, bad. And if you add your weight to the upper hull, then it's really turtle time.

The Bob is the best solution. The shroud extender is not number one best solution . (The list was not in any order, sorry.)

I'm just stuck with no practical way yet to put a Bob on an FX...


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PostPosted: Fri Apr 06, 2012 2:50 am 
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Bob's have their advantages, but are not higher on the list than a well sealed mast. I've capsized my 20 before with is really blowing and it will start to look like it will turtle. If I had a bob on the boat, there would be no possible way to ever catch my boat if I ever let go of it.

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