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PostPosted: Tue Apr 17, 2012 1:15 pm 
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If I straddle a mark (hit it right in the middle of the beam) am I deemed to have rounded the mark? Basically, do I have to reround or can I just do a turn?


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PostPosted: Tue Apr 17, 2012 1:55 pm 
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You should re-round, and do a turn. Ouch


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PostPosted: Tue Apr 17, 2012 2:05 pm 
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Unfortunately, no - you haven't rounded the mark.

The definition of mark in the Racing Rules of Sailing:
Quote:
Mark - An object the sailing instructions require a boat to leave on a specified side

You didn't leave the mark on a specified side if you ran over it. You must round it correctly or you would break RRS 28.1 (the "string rule"). However, by doing a circle around the mark to round it correctly, you will have fulfilled your obligation to do a penalty turn for hitting the mark (ISAF Case 108). There is no need to do a separate turn as Jacques suggested.

If you were forced to hit the mark by another boat (and it was their fault under the rules), you can protest them and be exonerated by the protest committee from breaking RRS 31 (touching a mark) and probably RRS 28.1 by RRS 64.1(c). I say "probably" because there is no ISAF case or US Sailing Appeal that deals with this situation.

I'll shoot Dick Rose (ISAF Rules Committee) an e-mail and see what he has to say about it.

Matt Bounds
US Sailing Judge


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PostPosted: Wed Apr 18, 2012 4:28 am 
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Ahhh yes ... the old pickle fork ... I know it well ... just as a hint for next time. When the touch is inevitable either you or the crew should grab the mark and make sure it gets to go down the correct, almost certainly port, side. There is no difference, under the RRS, between, a gentle brush and manhandling the thing out of the way. What you really, really want to avoid is the situation you ended up in: turn around and go back and round properly avoiding all the boats who were miles behind, then get out of their way and do a 360. Not fun.


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PostPosted: Wed Apr 18, 2012 4:47 am 
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BigWhoop wrote:
.... turn around and go back and round properly avoiding all the boats who were miles behind, then get out of their way and do a 360.

As I pointed out in my post above, rounding the mark properly (performing a tack and a jibe in the process) counts as your penalty turn. No need to do a separate penalty turn.

Dick Rose's response in reference to the exoneration of breaking 28.1 via 64.1(c):
Quote:
I don't know of any interpretation of the rules that would resolve this.
Dick


While that is not particularly helpful, I'm going to suggest that 64.1(c) doesn't exonerate the breach of 28.1, and here's why: US Sailing Appeals, Question 101 and ISAF Case 28 address somewhat similar situations (breach of 31 and 28.1) and in both instances, the boat was absolved of 31 (via 64.1(c)) and not of 28.1.

The rationale is that there is no remedy for breaching 31 (you can't un-touch a mark), but 28.1 allows course errors to be corrected anytime before finishing.

Bottom line - don't get into the situation in the first place.
Image
This guy had to intentionally flip the boat to get off that mark. Talk about slow!


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PostPosted: Wed Apr 18, 2012 11:21 am 
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MBounds wrote:
BigWhoop wrote:
.... turn around and go back and round properly avoiding all the boats who were miles behind, then get out of their way and do a 360.

As I pointed out in my post above, rounding the mark properly (performing a tack and a jibe in the process) counts as your penalty turn. No need to do a separate penalty turn.

Dick Rose's response in reference to the exoneration of breaking 28.1 via 64.1(c):
Quote:
I don't know of any interpretation of the rules that would resolve this.
Dick


While that is not particularly helpful, I'm going to suggest that 64.1(c) doesn't exonerate the breach of 28.1, and here's why: US Sailing Appeals, Question 101 and ISAF Case 28 address somewhat similar situations (breach of 31 and 28.1) and in both instances, the boat was absolved of 31 (via 64.1(c)) and not of 28.1.

The rationale is that there is no remedy for breaching 31 (you can't un-touch a mark), but 28.1 allows course errors to be corrected anytime before finishing.

Bottom line - don't get into the situation in the first place.
Image
This guy had to intentionally flip the boat to get off that mark. Talk about slow!


That is all the crews fault!

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PostPosted: Wed Apr 18, 2012 11:33 am 
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Matt,

Where is the picture from?

At a points regatta at Wilmette, Il they had marks with a net around them. We brushed the mark and it caught on the head of one of the rudder bolts. We drug it quite a ways before it got loose. It was a real long sting to unwind.


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PostPosted: Wed Apr 18, 2012 11:40 am 
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If it wasn't for all the 17's in the photo I wouldn't be able to defend an accusation that was me tied up to the mark.

Hey, Matt, what's the rule of drifting into a mark, or in my case, committee boat in low to no wind races? I had to fend off the committee boat while literally drifting across the finish line.


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PostPosted: Wed Apr 18, 2012 12:25 pm 
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Ok.. So it is well established you can't hit the mark.. No touching the mark allowed..


What if a situation arose where you were able to round the mark by passing a hull OVER the mark without touching it?

:D

Would this be Legal?


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PostPosted: Wed Apr 18, 2012 5:27 pm 
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jkkartz wrote:
Where is the picture from?
That's from the 2000 Hobie 18 / 17 Continentals in East Islip, Long Island, NY (Great South Bay).

The worst part about that was - the mark wasn't even part of his course! That was the 17's gate. The 18's gate was downwind of the signal boat (where the photo was taken from). Technically, he didn't have to do any penalty turns since it wasn't a mark of his course. He did take a pretty hefty penalty for not watching where he was going, though.

Skipshot wrote:
Hey, Matt, what's the rule of drifting into a mark, or in my case, committee boat in low to no wind races? I had to fend off the committee boat while literally drifting across the finish line.
You touch a mark, no matter what causes you to do it (other than another boat committing a foul), you've broken the rule. If you're going to fend off a mark, grab the anchor line, not the mark. The anchor line is not considered part of the mark.

ronholm wrote:
What if a situation arose where you were able to round the mark by passing a hull OVER the mark without touching it?

:D

Would this be Legal?

You mean like this?:
Image

I asked Dick Rose that question and he hasn't gotten back to me, nor do I expect him to. I think I pestered him enough for one evening with silly catamaran questions.

In reality, this never really happens. Even in the photo above, the lens makes it look like the mark is closer than it actually is. They came very close to it, but didn't actually fly a hull over it. You'd have to see the whole sequence to know that, though. (That's skipper Eric Raybon and Danny Rodriguez at the 2011 Hobie 16 Youth North Americans.)


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PostPosted: Wed Apr 18, 2012 9:14 pm 
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MBounds wrote:
In reality, this never really happens.


I finished a race once sailing an A-cat, upwind, start/finish in the middle of the course, and I flew the windward hull over the pin at the finish. I had over stood a smidge, and with another boat coming in on starboard to the finish it was going to be close. I didn't want to give any more ground than I had to.

I'm curious about the legality of such a finish as well.


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PostPosted: Thu Apr 19, 2012 2:11 pm 
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Flew over the mark but didn't touch it? Sounds like finished to me, as long as the lee hull was on the proper side of the mark.

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PostPosted: Tue Jun 19, 2012 4:41 pm 
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While looking for something else.. I did find this...

Not in an official rule book.. but close enough?

http://www.sailing.org/tools/documents/ ... 080%5D.pdf

Question
A catamaran on port tack approaches a leeward mark to be left to port. Does a catamaran that
"flies" its port (windward) hull over, and possibly to windward of, a leeward mark comply with the
requirements of rule 28.1 in relation to that mark rounding? The starboard hull is the only hull in
the water (creating a track) and this hull passes the mark correctly.


Answer

Yes.


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PostPosted: Sat Jul 21, 2012 9:08 am 
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MBounds wrote:
Skipshot wrote:
Hey, Matt, what's the rule of drifting into a mark, or in my case, committee boat in low to no wind races? I had to fend off the committee boat while literally drifting across the finish line.
You touch a mark, no matter what causes you to do it (other than another boat committing a foul), you've broken the rule. If you're going to fend off a mark, grab the anchor line, not the mark. The anchor line is not considered part of the mark.

It sounds like I would have been OK to push/use the committee boat's anchor line.

What's the rule on snagging a mark's anchor line with a dagger or rudder?


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PostPosted: Sat Jul 21, 2012 7:25 pm 
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Skipshot wrote:
What's the rule on snagging a mark's anchor line with a dagger or rudder?
According to the Racing Rules of Sailing:
Quote:
An anchor line or an object attached temporarily or accidentally to a mark is not part of it.
(from the definition of mark)
Doesn't matter what you touch the anchor line with, the anchor line is not part of the mark, so there is no penalty.

However, the mark tends to get drawn to the boat when you snag the anchor line with a board/rudder.

Good race management practice is to use killick or sentinel weights (old sash weights or similar) attached to the anchor line about 5' from the mark to hold the line straight down, so it doesn't get snagged.


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