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 Post subject: shorten sail
PostPosted: Mon Apr 23, 2012 7:46 pm 
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I'm interested in being able to reduce sail area on my 21SE when needed. I'm thinking of shortening an old main and installing an additional tang somewhere lower on the mast - perhaps just below the mast hound on the aluminum section of the mast. That way I can use the full size sail when I want or use the shorter sail, hoisted up to the lower tang, when the wind is howling.

I think I would prefer to put the additional tang up higher on the comp tip but I'm pretty uptight about drilling holes in it.

Has anybody done this or something similar? Any thoughts or observations (before I start drilling holes in the mast!) ?


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 Post subject: Re: shorten sail
PostPosted: Tue Apr 24, 2012 11:25 am 
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Posts: 2493
Location: Jersey Shore
It's an option that's been discussed before, but I don't know of anyone that's actually done this successfully. Here are some potential problems with mounting a second hook lower on the mast...

1st, when you're sailing with your full size mainsail, the lower hook is going to poke into the sail when the mast rotates. This will likely damage the sail pretty quickly (although maybe the sail could be reinforced with a leather patch).

2nd, installing the lower hook into the comptip would probably be a problem because there's no way to reinforce the backside of the rivets (inside the mast). For the normal halyard hook the aluminum mast head cap provides internal support for the rivets. Without this support, I suspect that the lower hook would pull out from mainsheet/downhaul load. Also, due to the taper of the comptip mast, the hook will likely not fit lower on the mast without some amount of modificiation.

3rd, you would need to install an aluminum luff track section at the head of the reefed mainsail otherwise the head would likely pull out of the track. These track sections are available from Hobie, so this wouldn't be a major issue.

Just some things to consider.

sm


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 Post subject: Re: shorten sail
PostPosted: Tue Apr 24, 2012 3:58 pm 
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srm - those are good points I hadn't considered. Glad I asked.


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 Post subject: Re: shorten sail
PostPosted: Wed Apr 25, 2012 7:39 pm 
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I had an extra reefing point added to the main for those big wind days. As the mail sail is shortened it balances nicely with the foresail. If the winds get any stronger its not the sails that pull you over it is the wind getting under the wing seats.


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 Post subject: Re: shorten sail
PostPosted: Fri Apr 27, 2012 2:31 pm 
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If it gets much over 30 knots, you're better off staying off the water. I sailed mine in San Francisco bay once in something over 30, but it was only because the boats had to be in the locked compound before a certain time the same day we assembled them up at the Presidio beach. A lot of the other guys used jib only, since it was straight downwind. I considered sailing behind Alcatraz to jibe, but since our boatspeed was up anyway, jibing really wasn't that eventfull. It could have very easily been for someone who hadn't put the time in during high wind though.

It was downwind. I was only able to use maybe the back one third of the main. The jib was of course furled. I imagine it would have been close to impossible to go upwind. I think regardless of the size of sail plan, above that and there will be more leeway than forward progress upwind.

Also, at some point, having 33' of mast up will be too much, and it's not too far beyond the point where I was only using the back third.

Up to 25 knots, it's all fun, but beyond that, in my opinion, there's too much stuff that can break, and it gets to the point that it's no longer fun.


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 Post subject: Re: shorten sail
PostPosted: Wed May 02, 2012 2:30 pm 
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stross - how do you keep the main up when using the reef points? Do you just cleat the halyard? I've never understood how that works. Would it be possible to add an extension to the halyard that would latch on the tang at one end and shackle to the head of the main on the other? How would you unlatch it to get the sail down?

Also - somebody on this forum has talked about using a "storm" jib. I'd be very interested in hearing the details about that perhaps with dimensions?

thanks,
br


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 Post subject: Re: shorten sail
PostPosted: Fri May 04, 2012 3:17 pm 
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The 21SC has 2 reef points in the main, and no mast hooks. There is a second aluminum luff track in the comp tip for the first reefing point, and the second reef puts the head of the sail below the comp tip. In all configurations, the main is just held up by the halyard, which is then cleated off on the side of the mast. In order to prevent the main from slipping down below the aluminum luff tracks, it is important to use a good static line, such as amsteel.

I don't see why you wouldn't be able to do something similar on the SE.

_________________
Todd
H21 SC


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 Post subject: Re: shorten sail
PostPosted: Mon May 07, 2012 7:52 pm 
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Is the luff track at the top of the 21 mast aluminum? My track looks to be the same material the whole length.


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 Post subject: Re: shorten sail
PostPosted: Tue May 08, 2012 12:04 am 
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Joined: Sat May 02, 2009 5:22 am
Posts: 449
Location: Columbus, Indiana
I had Salty Dog build a storm jib for my 21SE that I use when the wind is too strong for my crew.It may have been used 12 times since 1989 but it nice to have this in my inventory. 8)

_________________
Bill 404 21SE
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 Post subject: Re: shorten sail
PostPosted: Tue May 08, 2012 7:30 am 
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Bill 404 wrote:
I had Salty Dog build a storm jib for my 21SE that I use when the wind is too strong for my crew.It may have been used 12 times since 1989 but it nice to have this in my inventory. 8)


I just purchased a Jib off a Hobie-16 for my storm rig.

I had asked what the actual sail aria was on the 16 Main as well, here
but nobody replied :
viewtopic.php?f=9&t=42517

Where i sail at Mohave ; wind is Not a problem, we get More than needed
most the time. After kite-boarding here for 5 years, Ya get a feel
for the wind-lines. The kite i use is good for 13 to 30mph, and
sometimes i use Both ends of the range several times the same day.

OK -- knowing i get a 7-12 minute advanced warning that my Nice 13
is about to become a 30 ; NO way do i want 300sq/ft of aria on a
33ft tall mast. So i'm sewing in reefing points on the main to reduce
it to about 2/3'rds it's stock aria. The H-16 Jib is about 2/3 the size of the stock 21SE Jib.

The Best part is the leverage ; the center of effort is Lowered when
reefing in the Main. The head of the stock 21-SE Main, is near 33ft
high, where-as the Head of the H-16 main is only 26ft high.

The tract on my mast is aluminum all the way
up so changing my halyard to accept two different sail Head points
will Need to be done "Before" i go sailing that lake with my Hobie 21 SE.
Otherwise i kite-board and leave the Hobie home.

Funny that i'm starting to dream about flying a hull on a Hobie
MORE
than i bin dreaming about kite boarding lately. Probably cause
i'm only a month away from finishing this project.

Bille


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 Post subject: Re: shorten sail
PostPosted: Tue May 08, 2012 2:45 pm 
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Posts: 283
I'm trying to figure out the reefing picture. What winds are you guys talking about reefing in? I'd guess above 25 knots, since up to that point everything works pretty smoothly. The part of the picture I'm not getting is whether you are planning to reef out on the water to be able to continue sailing, or reef on the shore and go sailing. My experience is with 295 pounds of total crew weight. We had to add lead to bring it up to minimum weight when we were racing, but even then we had plenty of time on the boat when it was around 25. I understand the theory, but don't get the practicality.

In strong winds, speed is your friend. It makes jibing less eventful to have not much difference between boat speed and wind speed, and you need every bit of inertia you can muster to help in a tack.

In over 30, we're furling the jib and heading in. We won't be pulling up head-to to reef the main on the water. It things got really severe, we'd drop the main and go somewhere downwind with the jib or part of it. We been in some pretty big blows, but never got to the point that we needed to drop the main, and certainly would not have considered stopping to reef the main. If we're going sailing in a real blow on purpose, it's going to be on short boards with little sails.

I'm not trying to be critical. Just practical.


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 Post subject: Re: shorten sail
PostPosted: Wed May 09, 2012 1:22 pm 
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Tom King wrote:
I'm trying to figure out the reefing picture. What winds are you guys talking about reefing in? I'd guess above 25 knots,
...
In over 30, we're furling the jib and heading in. We won't be pulling up head-to to reef the main on the water. It things got really severe, we'd drop the main and go somewhere downwind with the jib or part of it.

...

I'm not trying to be critical. Just practical.


This is important --Tom--
I "WANT" you to be Critical, it gives boundary's for what
practical ((Should)) be for me !

I was # 4 in the world at ACRO on a Hang glider, in the 80's ; so
Ya should realize that maybe my boundary's aren't in a realistic place
as compared to most.

Your a really Good cat sailor ; I'm Not. I got No problem going out in
a 35mph Gust 40 at lake Mohave, with a kite-board --- as long as i'm on equipment built for the Task.

SO-- i just figured that if i got Rid of 1/3 of my sail aria, i'd be
good to go in a 30mph, because That is what i can expect at
this lake on any given day spring summer & fall. Same analogy I
would use on a land-sailor ; ( OH ! it's blowing 35, i'll rig the 3M sail),
"Wishing" i had a 2M.

I DON'T take your suggestions Personal ;
or anyone else who gives impute ------------- Honest !

Bille


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 Post subject: Re: shorten sail
PostPosted: Wed May 09, 2012 4:52 pm 
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Joined: Sun Jun 21, 2009 7:32 am
Posts: 283
Work your way up through the wind ranges, to the point that you are comfortable as it gets stronger. Kiteboarding, or any other variation of sailing, working your way up will be benefitial. You have to have experience in 12 knots to the point where you are good at boat handling, before sailing in 20.

You have to be able to put the boat in the groove, and keep it there with a light touch on the helm. Any extra steering just slows you down. You could watch the rudders on boats sailed by great sailors, and then on average sailors, and you would see a BIG difference in amount of steering. As it blows harder, speed becomes your friend. You don't want to slow down to jib or tack. The groove on any point of sail is a pretty fine line that's easily lost, but with everything tuned just right, the 21 is a joy to sail. If you need a wind indicator to help explain it, you aren't there yet.

With waves, and the bare mast up, even without any sail area, I'd guess by 30, it would be pretty easy for the boat to get blown over.

I live on a lake, and have rescued quite a number of people who thought that since it was whitecapping that it was a good day to go sailing. These without building the necessary boat handling skills coming up through the lower ranges.

Don't waste your time putting reef points in your sail for now. Sail the boat in light conditions, and work your way up through stonger winds. Don't go from a day when it's blowing 10 to 12, and jump right to 25. You and crew need to be very comfortable out on the wire while handling the boat.

I'm sure with your other experience, your learning curve will be shorter than most, but there still is one there.

It's not a boat to take out in even 20 knots until you get used to it in lighter winds. It's very stable and easy to sail once you get used to it, but it's still a fairly powerful beast that needs to be tamed with a light touch, and not one to be muscled around.

If you have much chop or waves where you sail, footstraps on the back of the wing help keep your feet in place in rough conditons. We have two on each wing. One for each of us, for our back foot. Skippers all the way back on the corner, and crews not too far ahead so the crews rear foot can go between the skippers'. They add a lot of security in rough conditions. It's a boat that needs to be sailed from the wire when needed.

Crew needs to handle the main traveler some times. In a blow the traveler is a most important device. Also, in handling the spinnaker, sometimes the crew needs to hand the skipper the sheet, like at takedown. It all takes practice, and you don't have time to think about things a whole lot in advance, the harder it blows.

I'm sure you'll enjoy it. It's a great boat.


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 Post subject: Re: shorten sail
PostPosted: Wed May 09, 2012 5:02 pm 
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Posts: 283
I came back to add: The goal in sailing anything should be to get comfortable handling whatever you are on, to the point that you can watch the water and not the boat. Especially in a blow, you need to see the gust coming, so you know what to do before it hits.


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 Post subject: Re: shorten sail
PostPosted: Wed May 09, 2012 6:11 pm 
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Joined: Thu May 03, 2012 4:56 pm
Posts: 51
Tom King wrote:
Work your way up through the wind ranges, to the point that you are comfortable as it gets stronger.
...
You have to be able to put the boat in the groove, and keep it there with a light touch on the helm. Any extra steering just slows you down. You could watch the rudders on boats sailed by great sailors, and then on average sailors, and you would see a BIG difference in amount of steering.
...
If you have much chop or waves where you sail, footstraps on the back of the wing help keep your feet in place in rough conditons. We have two on each wing. ...

I'm sure you'll enjoy it. It's a great boat.


With "That advice", i think After i flip it & see how to right her with with
ease :
I'm Gonna head to Mission Bay in SD ; summer Ya can kinda count
on light winds ; & learn to sail my New device called a Cat, in
almost boring conditions. I don't even Own a Kite that would
pull me in that light of wind, but the 21-SE will go in a 10mph.
Mohave "Will" blow 13 to 30mph on about 2 out of every 7 - 10 days
this spring.
Question Is : "Which Two" ?

The groove you describe -- works the same for Kite boarding and
land-sailing. With the Kite board, i need to look at the vortex coming
off the fins to see if i'm at optimum AOL on the board. I have
essentially NO concept of "Feel" with double prosthetics ; everything
Everything is visual, i glance at the fins about as much as i monitor
my rear view in traffic, (every 5 to 8 seconds).

The Land-sailor is the same also. A BloKart in a 30-G/35
will get Ya a Really fine line with one wheel up. The main-sheet
will balance & feel like a Hang glider in ground effect at 45mph
headway. :shock: :o :) ---------- :D

The footstraps are also going to need an 8" wide & flat stand with
a 3" lip so my feet don't fall out.
OR
a set of release bindings that a snow-boarder uses ?

Thanks : Bille


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