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 Post subject: Re: Sail area question
PostPosted: Mon May 14, 2012 1:51 pm 
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Quote:
Why does the H18 have more sail area than the H18SX?


My first thought was... "why does it matter?" For casual discussion over beers? They are what they are.

The brochures call them even. I always figured the SX jib was smaller (higher aspect or something), but not enough to make the difference in mains shown in these images, so what is the deal? Who knows now, the original sail was designed in Europe... maybe they measure differently that we do. I suspect some measurements included mast area and others may not have. The brochure may have been improperly copied from the H18SE. Some calculations I have a copy of show 202.8 SE and 219.8 SX... then state brochure dimension as 240 for both.

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 Post subject: Re: Sail area question
PostPosted: Mon May 14, 2012 2:44 pm 
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Joined: Mon Jul 04, 2005 10:13 am
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Location: Nepean S.C. Ottawa, Canada
Truly a discussion point worthy only over a beer or two....if we ever do meet, it will be my pleasure to buy the round.

Thanks for your wisdom Matt...and we'll continue to sail and enjoy our 18's of both styles.

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'Only two things are infinite, the universe, and human stupidity. But I'm not sure about the former.'


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 Post subject: Re: Sail area question
PostPosted: Tue May 15, 2012 6:31 am 
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Joined: Mon Nov 01, 2004 6:37 pm
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Location: Wrightsville Beach
Quote:
My first thought was... "why does it matter?" For casual discussion over beers? They are what they are.

For the majority of us in open class land it does matter. How can you have two of the exact same boats,except one with more sail area and spin with the same portsmouth numbers.


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 Post subject: Re: Sail area question
PostPosted: Tue May 15, 2012 7:17 am 
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Quote:
"why does it matter?"


Matt, I'll try and answer your question with a question: Why did you choose to include "sail area" as one of the key metrics in the FAQ section of each boat?


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 Post subject: Re: Sail area question
PostPosted: Tue May 15, 2012 8:41 am 
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BrianCT wrote:
Quote:
"why does it matter?"


Matt, I'll try and answer your question with a question: Why did you choose to include "sail area" as one of the key metrics in the FAQ section of each boat?


Sail area is one of the "key metrics" always included. Whether it is correct is the real question. That I am not confident, but a Hobie 16 is 16' 7" and is called a 16 foot boat, so there are many areas where approximation or rounding is used for marketing purpose. As noted... these were all built before the digital age.

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 Post subject: Re: Sail area question
PostPosted: Tue May 15, 2012 9:15 am 
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Joined: Tue Oct 20, 2009 2:20 pm
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Thank you all.

It was fun reading all of the responses, and yes it was worth a couple of beers!

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Double Take
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 Post subject: Re: Sail area question
PostPosted: Tue May 15, 2012 10:36 am 
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Genmar Star wrote:
For the majority of us in open class land it does matter. How can you have two of the exact same boats,except one with more sail area and spin with the same portsmouth numbers.


Handicap numbers are based on racing results... not strictly by sail area or boat dimensions, so after this many years... the handicap should be pretty accurate.

I think when you add wings to the SX it negates any performance advantage due to sail area.

Fyi... 18 and 18 Magnum are the same boat but with wings on the Magnum. The Sx does have a different number.

Hobie SX-18 spi H18SX 71.3
Hobie 18 & 18 Magnum H18 71.4

Making the SX appear to be slightly faster around a course.

http://offshore.ussailing.org/Portsmouth_Yardstick/Current_Tables/Multihull_Classes.htm

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Matt Miller
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 Post subject: Re: Sail area question
PostPosted: Tue May 15, 2012 3:08 pm 
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Location: Wrightsville Beach
Quote:
Handicap numbers are based on racing results... not strictly by sail area or boat dimensions, so after this many years... the handicap should be pretty accurate.


Was there even open class racing back in the day? When you say results did you guys race for instance 16,17,18s all at once to arrive at these numbers?


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 Post subject: Re: Sail area question
PostPosted: Wed May 16, 2012 9:17 am 
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I started racing Hobies in 1979, in most of the Division 11 events. None of the HCA events I sailed in ever had an open class, it was/is all one design.

That said, there may have been non-sanctioned racing that were handicapped by rating, whether Portsmouth or PHRF.

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'88 H18SE Arís


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 Post subject: Re: Sail area question
PostPosted: Wed May 16, 2012 11:40 am 
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Genmar Star wrote:
Was there even open class racing back in the day? When you say results did you guys race for instance 16,17,18s all at once to arrive at these numbers?


Hobie Cat does not assign the handicap numbers. The numbers are developed from racing under the portsmouth handicap yardstick. The results are taken from ANY open racing that the boat particpates in. This could be a Hobie racing against other models of Hobie, or a Sunfish, or a Melges 24, or any other boat with an assigned handicap rating. The more race results that are logged for a particular type of boat, the more closely the handicap number zeros in on the actual performance of the boat. The handicap system is intended to allow boats of any type or make race on a level playing field (how well the system works is open to interpretation).

In the case of the SX18, I suspect that overall, there was probably very little racing done (especially when compared to boats like the H18SE, H16, or Laser, etc). They probably started with the H18SE number as the baseline and found the SX to be ever so slightly faster (keep in mind that it uses a spinnaker downwind which should make it significanlty faster around a race course). I highly doubt the current number would be accurate for an experienced crew using a modern spinnaker. Without using the spin, my experience is that the SX 18 is not any faster around a course than an 18SE.

OlderBowman wrote:
I started racing Hobies in 1979, in most of the Division 11 events. None of the HCA events I sailed in ever had an open class, it was/is all one design.

That said, there may have been non-sanctioned racing that were handicapped by rating, whether Portsmouth or PHRF.


There was a period from the mid 90's to the mid 2000's when open racing allowed by the HCA and represented a significant percentage of racing particpants at Div 11 events, but for any number of reasons, the HCA decided to end it.

sm


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 Post subject: Re: Sail area question
PostPosted: Fri May 18, 2012 7:01 am 
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Yes, there were many races, here locally, were all the "Beach Cats" raced together in a single class ... and I agree w/ Mr SRM on the H18SX ... here in Div11 the H18SE's have been able to beat a H18SX ... all the time, every time ... now whether that is experience/developement (or lack of) ... or dumb luck ... I can't say, but it is "fact" ...

The current "Portsmith Handicap" numbers were developed by a very nice lady named Darlene ... (who loved math) ... for US Sailing. The results for "Open" Class races, finishing times, were sent to Darlene who colated/organized/developed the resulting portsmith handicap numbers. Please note that Darlene passed away several years ago ... and is missed greatly ....

Please note that the "Portsmith Handicap" numbers ARE NOT a "measurement rule" but are based on the assumption that the "best finisher" sailed the boat to/for the absolute best/perfect race possible. This means that the "crews" level of ability are assumed and are a big factor but are not measured directly. (... and who has ever sailed a "perfect" race ????)

Therefore, there is some discussions currently going on about "TEXEL" and "SCHEXS" (?) ... both of these are "measurement" based handicap systems, from Europe, where the boats is "measured" and a handicap number assigned. These handicap measurement systems remove the "crew" from the equation as a "factor" ....

As a owner of a H18 and a P19MX w/spin I have raced many times under both formats ... basically in "One-Design" you race the other boats ... you cover and concentrate on finishing POSITION ...

In "handicap" you are racing the "clock" ... so if you are on one of the faster multi's your basic statagy is to concentrate on your boat, and do what you do best ...ignoring all handicaped slower boats, while trying to slow down any faster handicaped boats ...

... a totally different thought process/mindset and resulting strategy ...

... and PLEASE do not get me started on the topic of "Hobie Only" ..... (while good for the "Hobie Corporation" ... it SUCKED on the Hobie Fleet level and DESTROYED alot of fleets/friendships !!!!)

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HarryMurphey
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 Post subject: Re: Sail area question
PostPosted: Fri May 18, 2012 10:19 am 
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interesting point about mixing classes in the '90s. I was completely out of racing during that time.

I'd agree that ratings formulii are 'best guesses' at best. in my neck of the woods PHRF ratings are used almost exclusively, and they actually vary from region to region in the country for the same class boat due to conditions. since its supposed to be based upon performance, poor sailors can actually affect a class' rating.

I've seen boats rated much higher than their actual performance shows, there is a lot of inequity in ratings systems or at least the way ratings are derived.

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Chris
'88 H18SE Arís


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 Post subject: Re: Sail area question
PostPosted: Fri May 18, 2012 1:23 pm 
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Location: North Carolina
No rating system is perfect. And the SX with the spin designed for it and wings is not any faster overall than the SE. The wings slow the boat down, H18 will beat the H18 magnum.
Perfect boats at optimal crew weight and experience will sail to the published numbers. The issue is most of us have neither the perfect boat or crew.

The SX number is clearly out of line if you add a newer designed spin and custom mainsail. Even with the hits this boat becomes an open class killer. Start racing the H18 solo like Genmar does and the boat is even faster and livelier but the SX rig and spin overpower the boat quickly and the hit for solo is rediculous.

I could care less about racing anymore but the speed I can travel across the water on my cat is of upmost importance!


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 Post subject: Re: Sail area question
PostPosted: Fri May 25, 2012 6:50 pm 
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Joined: Mon Nov 01, 2004 6:37 pm
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Location: Wrightsville Beach
Quote:
The SX number is clearly out of line if you add a newer designed spin and custom mainsail. Even with the hits this boat becomes an open class killer. Start racing the H18 solo like Genmar does and the boat is even faster and livelier but the SX rig and spin overpower the boat quickly and the hit for solo is rediculous.


I dont race my 18 its just my main ride. This is kinda my whole point. I am not going to drive 6hrs(my regatta distance driving max) and no I am going to lose before I even get there. I guess I am beating a dead horse. I have a 16 for racing .
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