Hobie Cat Forums

It is currently Fri Aug 22, 2014 3:16 pm

All times are UTC - 8 hours [ DST ]




Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 23 posts ]  Go to page Previous  1, 2
Author Message
 Post subject: Re: shorten sail
PostPosted: Thu May 10, 2012 3:14 pm 
Offline
Site Rank - Deck Hand

Joined: Fri Apr 04, 2008 9:01 am
Posts: 15
My opinion is that the 21SE is much harder to depower than the more modern high performance cats. I had a Prindle 19 before and in a blow you could downhaul the hell out it and have a pretty manageable boat.

I sail on a river which means frequent tacking and jibing. I also single hand a lot or sail with a kid or two. For a variety of reasons I don't get out that much and it's a drag to stay on shore the few times everybody else is going out because the wind happens to be honking that day.

I have no delusions about reefing the main while on the water. On days when it's blowing hard and I just don't feel like risking life and limb it would be nice to have the option of sailing with reduced sail area. It's a decision I would make prior to leaving the dock.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: shorten sail
PostPosted: Wed May 16, 2012 8:03 am 
Offline
Site Rank - Captain

Joined: Mon Jun 07, 2010 2:01 pm
Posts: 33
In regards to reefing while out on the water, I just want to say that it's definitely possible without much risk. Granted, the 21SC is a less powerful beast than the SE, but my crew and I have done it on more than a couple of occasions. Just a few weeks ago, we did it in 25-30 kts without any scary moments.

All we do is trim the jib in tight, and I release the main sheet & traveler. After that, I hold the boat hove to while my crew lowers an reefs the main. The furling main on the SC helps a lot in this process, but I don't feel that it is a necessity.

_________________
Todd
H21 SC


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: shorten sail
PostPosted: Fri May 18, 2012 10:46 am 
Offline
Site Rank - Captain

Joined: Thu May 03, 2012 4:56 pm
Posts: 51
trbenning wrote:
In regards to reefing while out on the water, I just want to say that it's definitely possible without much risk.
...


The ability to REDUCE power in the sails , is a No-brainier on
a mono-hull. It was on of the First thing's taught to me ; to match the proper
power in sail aria, for the conditions.

Last week i was out just before sun-set on a NACRA 5.8 in 5 -8mph wind for
two hours. We could have used an Easy 30% more sail aria for those
conditions !!!

If I go out in a 15-18mph, and it picks up to 28+ ; I "WILL" have
the ability to reduce power by 33% BEFORE i even think about
going on the water with Any kind of sail-boat. Nobody can predict
the wind with enough accuracy to bet their life on it. And YES there
have bin Plenty of sailors, caught in Freak storms in the past; some
are dead because of it !

*** A few on this thread "HAVE" a practiced Plan to reduce power in
the event of dealing with greater wind than anticipated ; the ones that
Don't have such a plan, i'd suggest Ya get one
OR
Stay Really close to the shore-line at All Times.

Bille


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: shorten sail
PostPosted: Fri May 18, 2012 5:06 pm 
Offline
Site Rank - Admiral

Joined: Sun Jun 21, 2009 7:32 am
Posts: 288
My argument against going through the effort to be able to reef the 21 SE was strictly a practical one. I deliver sailboats up and down the East coast, and am quite familiar with reefing, and when you need to. Monohulls, with a keel to keep them upright, are completely different animals. I have thousands of hours sailing anything that floats, and some things that don't.

The 21 SE is easily sailed in up to 25 knots by an experienced crew. Above that, and there is a good chance the boat can be blown over under bare poles, with any waves that go along with strong wind. I've seen them get blown over on the beach in less wind than I would have thought it would take. A 33' stick in the air is a lot of leverage in a blow, even with nothing on it.

I have sailed the boat, as I mentioned earlier, in over 30 knots, under main alone. I had an inexperiened guest with me as ballast only-she didn't even know what a trapeze harness was. It was downwind. ( I just used the ruler on Google Earth, and total trip was only about 6 miles down San Fransciso Bay (cranking at its finest). The boat handled just fine by using only the back of the sail with me on the wire by myself. If it had been much stronger than that, I would have dropped the main and continued with jib alone-which a number of the other sailors did that day-we were just getting the boats to the right place on the bay before a race weekend. It really wasn't that bad.

In stictly practical thinking, I think deciding to go out in a real blow to start with just because you can reef the sail, is not a good idea. Aussie Skiff sailors have different size sails to go out in different winds, but those are complete rigs with the right length masts for the sail plan. If we are going sailing in a real blow, we use short boards with teeny sails.

I don't know that we have ever been out of sight of land on a cat, and I am completely comfortable sailing the 21 without being able to reef the sails. Being able to furl the jib makes a really big difference, and the boat sails just fine under main alone.

My wife and I have sailed the 21 in winds stronger than 25 a couple of times when it picked up. Once was during a race off Wrightsville Beach when it got so rough the Committee Boat went in. The boat was still handling great, even though Pam got a little worked up because she had to go down on the tramp to tie the spinnaker bag shut because waves kept knocking it open-that had never happened before. We didn't even need to furl the jib to sail the boat around some and go in.

Another time we were just cruising on the lake, and the wind picked up to really strong from just easy cruising 10 to 12 range. We just feathered the main a little, and were able to sail the 10 miles home without much drama. We didn't furl the jib that day either, but we are both comfortable sailing the boat from the wire.

I can understand the reasoning involved in thinking it's a good idea, but just don't think it's worth the effort with this boat. If you can't go out and blast it around when it's blowing 20 to 25 without worrying about going over, you simply need to put the time in with less wind until you get to that comfort level. You need to be completely comfortable sailing the boat from the wire to tackle strong wind-or else, you need to be sailing something else. I'm never more than a few miles from shore on a beach cat anyway.

I'd be interested in seeing how it works out for whoever does it, but we won't be planning to use a reefed main on the 21. I'd especially be interested, out of curiousity, in how well it sails upwind in over 30. Mine was simply a 21 before they came out with the SC and then named the original 21 the 21SE, so I still just call it a 21 from old habit. I am talking SE here, and not SC-less weight and more stick up in the air.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: shorten sail
PostPosted: Fri May 18, 2012 6:47 pm 
Offline
Site Rank - Admiral

Joined: Sun Jun 21, 2009 7:32 am
Posts: 288
I was telling my wife about this conversation. She reminded me of another blow we were in on the 21. There used to be a yearly race called the Cannonball Run. It left from Atlantic Beach, N.C., went to Cape Lookout Lighthouse, and back. One year the whole fleet got caught in a blow, and everyone sailed in to the beach part the way to the lighthouse. I remember there were 3 21's. Maybe more, but I remember ours, Martin Willard's, and George Wooten's.

It picked up in a hurry to something over 25, looked to get worse, and everyone hit the beach. We considered taking the mast down, but hard rain came in and none of us did take the masts down. We were lucky that none of the boats got blown over, but we had them nose to wind, with the bows down because of where we landed.

None of us even furled the jibs to sail the mile or 2 to the beach that day. I'm sure any of us would have if we had needed to.

I asked Pam if she would have considered stopping the boat to reef the main in any of the blows that we had been in. She laughed. She said the same thing I had said. If it got that desperate, we would try just dropping the whole main, and use the jib or part of it, if we were lucky enough to stay upright.

I also remembered Ed Baird and Carlton Tucker flying their spinnakers once on a warmup Friday before a race weekend at Annapolis, in something over 25. I told them they were nuts later, but they just laughed.

If you sail the 21 in strong winds, one thing I do recommend, is to change to a stronger upper furler. Pete Melvin's pulled apart in Annapolis, and someone elses did at Wrightsville Beach. I changed ours to some Harken (don't remember the model) that listed a much stronger working strength, and we have never had an issue with it.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: shorten sail
PostPosted: Sat May 19, 2012 11:49 am 
Offline
Site Rank - Captain

Joined: Thu May 03, 2012 4:56 pm
Posts: 51
Tom King wrote:
...
everything Tom said
...


Absolutely "LOVE" your passion there --Tom-- !!

I'm Hoping Ya didn't mind the way i evoked your response ?

Truth is : "I Wanna Know this stuff, & prying it out of the Wise-Ones
is kinda Difficult" !!

Tom King wrote:

...


If you sail the 21 in strong winds, one thing I do recommend, is to change to a stronger upper furler. Pete Melvin's pulled apart in Annapolis, and someone elses did at Wrightsville Beach. I changed ours to some Harken (don't remember the model) that listed a much stronger working strength, and we have never had an issue with it.


My Point :
You "Probably" wouldn't have volunteered that information if i hadn't
had Prodded Ya a Bit first ?

And NOW -- I'm gonna go change out that Furling Mechanism to
a Stronger one like you described !!
Any suggestions on that ?
A Harken "What" model , or How Many LB of working force ??
Bille


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: shorten sail
PostPosted: Mon May 21, 2012 4:38 pm 
Offline
Site Rank - Admiral

Joined: Sun Jun 21, 2009 7:32 am
Posts: 288
I don't remember the Harken furler model #. I changed it in 1989. A year or so ago, I tried looking at it for someone else, and couldn't find an exact match by looking at current Harken info online. I do remember specs said it was a lot stronger than the working strength of the stock one (which is the same one on the 18) when I was first figuring out what to use. I also remember it freed up the furling effort by a lot. I got Murray's to make a new upper forestay so the length to the bottom pin in the furler matched the stock setup-it was one step up in diameter of wire, and we are still using it. It still furls easily. This boat hasn't been sailed in salt water in over 2 decades, and is always stored in a closed building.

Here's the link to the thread where we were discussing it a couple of years ago:
viewtopic.php?f=9&t=14018&start=15

I'll try to look at it this weekend and do some more comparisons. The models may be completely different now, but size and hole sizes should still be the same as some current model.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: shorten sail
PostPosted: Tue May 22, 2012 2:27 pm 
Offline
Site Rank - Captain

Joined: Mon Jun 07, 2010 2:01 pm
Posts: 33
I agree with you Tom, that it's usually not worth it to reef on the 21. I never do it when it's just me and my usual crew, since we're both comfortable sailing it from the wire.

I will say, however, that the ability to reef has been a great asset when I occasionally take a few people out, including kids and pets. In these situations, I'll throw in a reef or 2 if it gets up around 20 just to rule out the possibility of a capsize as best I can.

_________________
Todd
H21 SC


Top
 Profile  
 
Display posts from previous:  Sort by  
Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 23 posts ]  Go to page Previous  1, 2

All times are UTC - 8 hours [ DST ]


Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 2 guests


You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum

Search for:
Jump to:  
Powered by phpBB® Forum Software © phpBB Group