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 Post subject: Rudder woes
PostPosted: Sun Jun 03, 2012 11:13 am 
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Posts: 21
Not sure how to attach a pic so here goes at attempt to describe.

83 crappy h16. Broke one of the upper gudgeons. All of the bolts are sheared off in the transoms because they weren't stainless.

The hull on which the gudgeon broke is missing the part of the lip with the hole in it where the pin goes through. Does that part of the structure do anything? Was that why the gudgeon broke? I think that it would be tricky to rebuild it.

Here is what I'm thinking, if the glass lip with the hole isn't important I could remove it from the hull where it is still intact. If I can do this I think I can
Mount the new gudgeons just a fraction lower using new holes and leave the broken bolts.

However if the lip and the hole for the pin are required to keep the whole deal together I have to rebuild the lip and also work out how to get the broken bolts so the new gudgeons go back in exactly the same spot. If this is the case I may be better off trying to find some hulls.

What do you all think ??


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 Post subject: Re: Rudder woes
PostPosted: Mon Jun 04, 2012 11:48 am 
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Joined: Thu Jun 24, 2010 6:49 am
Posts: 73
Location: Lighthouse Point, Florida
Here is my opinion.... If you are a good mechanic, you can put a fix on this and have it be ok. I'm working on mine now and i'm into the rudder gudgeon area, inside. Inside the transom there is a wood piece and then there is an aluminum plate with threads for the screws. The broken upper deck is not structural. you dont have to do anything to it if you dont want to. I did, its not too hard to do, if you are good with fiberglass and resin. You can do like you said and drill holes a bit lower in the transom for the rudder. Drill and tap them into the aluminum. That is, if the aluminum is still there... Mine was so corroded that it expanded and delaminated the side of the boat. Hope this helps.
Image


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 Post subject: Re: Rudder woes
PostPosted: Mon Jun 04, 2012 11:49 am 
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Joined: Thu Jun 24, 2010 6:49 am
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Location: Lighthouse Point, Florida
Here is a picture of the repair to the top deck.
Image


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 Post subject: Re: Rudder woes
PostPosted: Mon Jun 04, 2012 3:10 pm 
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Joined: Sun Jan 23, 2005 11:20 am
Posts: 121
Location: Sodus NY
Drill out the old screws any way you can. Even if you have to drill out the holes larger or drill small holes around the screws. Then epoxy the new screws in. I f you ever have to remove the screws use a propane torch and heat up the screw heads until the epoxy just starts to smoke a bit. Then the screws will back right out. I reccoment the new cast goudgeons but you may have to do some dremel work so that they work with the older castings.

cheers
Bill


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 Post subject: Re: Rudder woes
PostPosted: Mon Jun 04, 2012 3:49 pm 
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Joined: Sun Jun 03, 2012 10:44 am
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I think the path of least resistance for me ( time isn't on my side ) Is to grind off the bit of upper deck on the hull that has it intact.

Make sure that it's all sealed.

Seal over the old bolt holes with epoxy.

Install the old style gugdeons just a fraction lower with new drilled and tapped holes (and epoxy for good luck ).

I have thought about various options of installing one piece gudgeons and putting in hatches so I can check the Alu plate. Whilst I am sure they are better solutions I am both broke and busy so as long as option 1 one has a chance success I think I will try it.

Agree or disagree ??

BTW the repair of the upper deck in the pics is exactly what is was trying to describe.

Thanks

Ben


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 Post subject: Re: Rudder woes
PostPosted: Mon Jun 04, 2012 4:20 pm 
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Location: Sodus NY
Disagree. I think relocating the gudgeons and trimming the deck is unneccesary. Trim or drill any wet wood out and epoxy the screws in the same spots. They will never loosen on you again. The older gudgeons only break if the screws loosen.


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 Post subject: Re: Rudder woes
PostPosted: Mon Jun 04, 2012 5:40 pm 
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I think the only way that removing the old screws will be easier than trimming the deck and doing the new holes is if I cut a lot of glass away from the transoms to expose enough screw to able to grab it with vice grips to turn it.

All of the screws heads came off either flush or about 1/8 recessed in. I could try drilling up the middle of the screws and using an easy out, but I don't rate my chances too highly. In short I think getting the old screws out will be an epic I would prefer to avoid.

I am also wondering if the mild steel screws corroded the alu plate built in to the transoms. I wonder if tapping a new hole slightly lower into virgin plate would make the attachment stronger ? I wonder if the plate has damaged or the holes are bigger there may be a chance that if I re tap the old holes I might not be getting firmly into the Alu ?

I really appreciate the input, thanks all


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 Post subject: Re: Rudder woes
PostPosted: Mon Jun 04, 2012 8:49 pm 
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Location: Sodus NY
I don't think you realize how much things have to move to re locate the holes. The castings require the gudgeons to be where they are. The aluminum plate spreads the load of the screws and is probably worn or corroded as you suspect. By drilling out the the hole bigger and casting new threads with the epoxy you are spreading the load through the plywood and making it water tight. Use white marinetex epoxy. Assuming you have white hulls you wont be able to even see the repair job when you are done. You can go up a size on the screws to 1/4" but using the epoxy method does not require it.

Do whatever you want but having done this type of job a few times before I think your plan is bad. Line up the castings on the stern before you start and you'll see what I mean.


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 Post subject: Re: Rudder woes
PostPosted: Mon Jun 04, 2012 8:57 pm 
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Location: Sodus NY
By the way you can't cut the whole deck lip off the stern. The deck lip is the seal between the top and bottom of the hull and it barely comes together around the rudder pin hole. Cutting any significant amount of material away will open a hole into the hull.


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 Post subject: Re: Rudder woes
PostPosted: Tue Jun 05, 2012 1:29 am 
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Thank you so much for the input bill, I appreciate the effort.

So plan A is to try to remove old bolts with a drill and EZ out, go up to 1/4 with epoxy and happy days.

Sadly I'm not sure this will be so simple.

Plan B. Grind away as much transom as necessary even if I go to the ply in order to remove the old bolts. The port transom is bowed out a little so I may get a chance to inspect / repair this.

Go up to a 1/4 and epoxy in screws.

If I had to resort to plan B, and in fact I think I will probably have a mixture of luck and end up with some of each, what would I re build the transom with ? The marine tex ? Would I need a filler ? Glass mat ? Maybe I should ask this once the damage is done.

Hulls are yellow but I dont really care.


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 Post subject: Re: Rudder woes
PostPosted: Tue Jun 05, 2012 3:16 am 
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Location: Sodus NY
I have never had great luck with ez-outs. A dremel tool or drill used to remove enough gel coat to use vise grips seems like a good plan. You don't really need to gentle because the epoxy adds strength when you put it back together. The ends of the bolts on the outside may be bent a bit because they did get torn off. Remember to remove any soggy plywood and dry the area so you end up with a solid repair. If possible keep a couple bolts in the Aluminum plate while you are working. I have heard of them falling off on the inside. Good luck.


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 Post subject: Re: Rudder woes
PostPosted: Tue Jun 05, 2012 4:58 am 
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Joined: Mon May 09, 2005 10:25 am
Posts: 2529
Location: Jersey Shore
If I were you, I would just install a 4" or 5" porthole in the aft deck. This will allow you to get inside the hull. Then you can try to remove the gudgeon screws from the inside using vice grips. If that doesn't work, then drill out the screws.

Either way, after removing the broken screws, you would then be able to thru-bolt the new screws in place by fastening nuts to the screws from inside the hull. This will be stronger than original and the screws will be less likely to become frozen in the transom.

I agree that trying to relocate the gugeons is not the way to go about repairing this.

sm


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 Post subject: Re: Rudder woes
PostPosted: Tue Jun 05, 2012 5:32 am 
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Thank you so much for your help.

As it stands the inspection ports will only happen if it's not possible to do it without. I like the idea but it is time and money. Also as the broken off screws are not standard there is no guarantee that they will be protruding inside the hull. So I maybe in situation where I cut in the hatches and it doesn't make my life easier with regards to removing the old ones.

I will try the EZ out first, I figure it's worth a shot.

The grind away and vice grips from the outside second.

Inspection ports if all else fails.

Sound good ???


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 Post subject: Re: Rudder woes
PostPosted: Sun Jul 01, 2012 5:28 pm 
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Bump, and one more question.

The job is at least theoretically done. Inspection ports in gudgeons in.

I used 1/4 stainless bolts with biggish washers on the inboard bolts and smaller washers on the outboard ones as they are too close to the hull to use bigger washers. I dry fitted everything to make sure it all lined up and I could get the pins in, then I backed them all of and threw some epoxy around and did them up tight.

All seems solid with the gudgeons thru bolted. I am sure that the bolts aren't biting into the alu plate at all. Either the holes in in are too big or it has corroded away. The nuts and washers are replacing it but obviously have less area.

Am I ok ??????


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 Post subject: Re: Rudder woes
PostPosted: Mon Jul 02, 2012 4:19 am 
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Joined: Sun Jan 23, 2005 11:20 am
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Location: Sodus NY
overkill in my opinion. just the epoxy would have done it.


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