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PostPosted: Tue Jun 19, 2012 11:20 am 
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Location: Clinton Lake, KS
We were out Fathers day in Big shifty wind.... Long story but I ended up solo for a race or two... And there were no trophies.. or anything.. just good clean fun.

I was terribly late to the start due to a pre start capsize.. but whatever... Around the course once, and this video is the second time around. I figured the race was a lost cause... but...... I stuck with them the first time around...

Then I perform one of my classic (read clumsy and accidental) tacking maneuvers, and then end up pinching to make the mark.. Somehow making up some ground. (I did this because you can see tacking even with some skill is difficult in the conditions.. Staying in contact with the rear crossbar was a near certain wheelie head to wind... So if I could hit the mark without a tack I figured it had to save time.. even if it was slow... Also note the tiller extension which ended up through the trapeze handle...) . Then because I am cheating by sailing underweight (210 lbs) I sail right past the both of them down wind..

Heading back up to the line a wind shift I should have expected leaves me pinching (yet again) to make the pin end of the line... Ending up in irons just after nosing across the line.



After watching the video..


Were any rules broken?

Am I allowed to bump the pin upon completing the race?


I certainly don't care that the other boat had to push off me to avoid contact.. but technically he is violating the rules there and not me, correct? (for blocking the line intentionally or otherwise?) If he is not allowed to squeeze past like he did.. and had to perform a tack.. and looses a place because of it.. What happens then? Nothing?


We had a blast.. There is nothing at stake here.. I am just curious.

Or any other tips and pointers????





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PostPosted: Tue Jun 19, 2012 11:51 am 
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Location: Thunder Bay,On
Looks like a comedy routine,rules broken,where do you want to start.1. No you cannot hit the pin.2.you are head to wind on ther line(that is considered tacking),the other boat is on Starboard,you forced him to tack.3.Put your nesserary weights on if sailing single handed (min racing weight is 280#),put a life jacket on.
Tips,get your weight off the rudders and move forward,don't pinch.If you are going to race read up on the rules,should at least know the basic ones,other wise you become an obstruction on the course.


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PostPosted: Tue Jun 19, 2012 12:41 pm 
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Location: Clinton Lake, KS
mmadge wrote:
Looks like a comedy routine,rules broken,where do you want to start.1. No you cannot hit the pin.2.you are head to wind on ther line(that is considered tacking),the other boat is on Starboard,you forced him to tack.3.Put your nesserary weights on if sailing single handed (min racing weight is 280#),put a life jacket on.
Tips,get your weight off the rudders and move forward,don't pinch.If you are going to race read up on the rules,should at least know the basic ones,other wise you become an obstruction on the course.



I am wearing a lifejacket. It is under my under armor shirt.. It keeps the buckles and straps of the life jacket from possibly getting hung up on stuff when I am flopping around on the boat (and in the water :lol: )

Yes... I am under Hobie Class "min weight" for this "race" Heck... Jeff and several others are using a solid masts... Oh my... NOBODY involved in this race cares.. Nobody even cares about what place or how it ended for purposes other than entertainment and education. I had crew before... and after this particular race..

We are just out having fun... Lets keep it fun Mike...


When pinching up on that first leg there... I was sitting as far forward as I could.. When I was flopping around in the water notice the tiller extension ends up stuck through a trapeze handle.. So I had an excuse for sitting so far back.. Please keep that in mind.... I make plenty of mistakes.. So don't ride me to hard for the ones I couldn't quickly or easily correct... :D



Now... for entertainment/education purposes only...

What is the penalty for hitting the pin upon completion of the race? Avoiding the pin would have put me further into Jeff's way at that point as the wind was shifting around... Heck.. Without me to push off of.. I ain't sure he would have made the pin without a tack anyway... I know you can't see the pin on film after I drift back... but watch how fast I drift below the pin.. and where we 'make contact' at... He doesn't cross the line until probably a good 3 to 6 seconds beyond the end of this video... He might have had just enough steam to nudge over the line... But he wouldn't have gone as far over as I did... At least I sure don't think he would have based on what I watched.. and what is in the video...


Again... Nobody involved in the race cares other than for purposes of a tactical discussion/education.


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PostPosted: Tue Jun 19, 2012 6:59 pm 
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Location: Ontario, Canada
I wish I could find a race like this. A "go out, have fun! We'll learn from our mistakes as we make them" kind of race.

That's the biggest turn off I have with racing.

Give a guy like me a chance to come in, learn the basic rules, and make mistakes in a "fun race" and I'd gladly learn to race. Who knows, I might even be good. I can sail the heck out of my Bravo and beat boats which should be faster than me.

I'd love to learn to race, but with the summer being so short up here, I'd like to learn on my boat. It's not worth it to me to join a club, go through the classes, crew for someone else... then eventually, take the helm.

Let's have some more fun races! Let's allow new people to make mistakes, and teach them as they go in a fun, no consequences kind of environment. Just like the original post described!

_________________
Image


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PostPosted: Tue Jun 19, 2012 9:00 pm 
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Location: Clinton Lake, KS
augaug wrote:
I wish I could find a race like this. A "go out, have fun! We'll learn from our mistakes as we make them" kind of race.




This has been my experience at the Hobie Regatta's I have attended so far. There have been very few people I have ran into which I didn't like.. and SSSSOOOOO many very helpful and friendly folks.. Since I am still fairly new to the game I just tend to stay out of the way for the most part.... Only pushing my luck with stuff I am totally for sure about when I think there might be anyone serious around..

But yeah.. I know of many even around here who seem to be scared off by the "R" word.. So when we go racing locally on the weekends or weekdays we try to keep it fun, and very simple.. We want more people to race with.. even if they are breaking the rules and in the way.. :D Sometimes we even use No wake buoy's and mono-hulls as marks... :lol: Not sure what the penalties are for hitting slow moving marks.. :lol:



OK...


So I found this..



E 001 Q&A 2006-002
Revised: 12 January 2009

Question
With respect to the definition Racing, when has a boat 'cleared' the finishing line and marks?

Answer
A boat clears the finishing line and marks when no part of her hull, crew or equipment is on the line
and when neither mark is influencing her course.
A boat that clears the finishing line close-hauled and continues to sail toward the finishing line pin
end mark, where current sets her into the mark, is still racing and has broken 31. A boat that
crosses the finishing line, sails away from the line and marks, and then later hits the finishing line
mark, does not break rule 31 as she is no longer racing.





So I violated 31 because I didn't "clear" the line before touching the pin. I am still not sure what the penalty is for that though? Am I required to do the penalty turns and then re-finish? Or???

And are you required to clear the line by crossing entirely over the line? Or would I have been clear of the line by just crossing... and then backing down clearing the line.... just simply taking more care to avoid the mark..



Also.. Does the three boat lengths thing apply near the pin at the finish? As in could I have done a tack to port and still had rights over the other boat? despite being in his way.. Would he still be required to give me room at the pin?


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PostPosted: Wed Jun 20, 2012 9:23 am 
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Joined: Mon May 09, 2005 10:25 am
Posts: 2570
Location: Jersey Shore
Per the Racing Rules of Sailing 2009 - 2012, the following rules would apply to touching the finish mark...

31 TOUCHING A MARK
While racing, a boat shall not touch a starting mark before starting, a
mark that begins, bounds or ends the leg of the course on which she
is sailing, or a finishing mark after finishing.


44.1 Taking a Penalty
A boat may take a Two-Turns Penalty when she may have broken a
rule of Part 2 while racing or a One-Turn Penalty when she may
have broken rule 31.
Sailing instructions may specify the use of the
Scoring Penalty or some other penalty. However,
(a) when a boat may have broken a rule of Part 2 and rule 31 in the
same incident she need not take the penalty for breaking rule
31;
(b) if the boat caused injury or serious damage or gained a significant
advantage in the race or series by her breach her penalty
shall be to retire.

44.2 One-Turn and Two-Turns Penalties
After getting well clear of other boats as soon after the incident as
possible, a boat takes a One-Turn or Two-Turns Penalty by promptly
making the required number of turns in the same direction, each turn
including one tack and one gybe. When a boat takes the penalty at or
near the finishing line, she shall sail completely to the course side of
the line before finishing.


In short, if you touch the finish pin, you have to sail clear of all other nearby boats and completely to the course side of the finish line, complete one 360 degree turn (one tack & one gybe), and then finish properly.

You do not have to sail completely through the finish line in order to finish, you just need to break the plane of the line with your bow. However, if you hit the finish pin (or RC boat) then you have violated rule 31 and must complete your penalty turn and re-finish.

Yes, the 3-boat length circle applies to all of the marks of the course except for a starting mark surrounded by navigable water (i.e., there is no "room" at a starting mark). An upwind finish would be treated just like entering A mark. You can not come into the mark on Port tack screaming for room as the inside boat and expect to sneak in as this is a port/starboard situation not an inside/outside situation - starboard has right over port. So no, you could not have tacked in front of the other boat and called for room. However, judging from the video, there was plenty of room for you to tack in front of him (assuming you pulled of a decent tack) and pass ahead of him on port. This would have been the better thing to do rather than trying to pinch to make the mark. You should have accepted early on that you weren't going to make the mark, foot off for speed rather than try to pinch, and then tack well ahead of the other boat and cross him. If you were not sure whether you would be able to pull of the tack and cross him, you have to either tack and duck his stern or wait for him to tack and then you tack when you're clear. Either way, he wins the race...that's all part of the tactics of the game.

sm


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PostPosted: Wed Jun 20, 2012 9:50 am 
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Joined: Wed May 05, 2010 8:28 am
Posts: 702
Location: Clinton Lake, KS
srm wrote:
Per the Racing Rules of Sailing 2009 - 2012, the following rules would apply to touching the finish mark...

31 TOUCHING A MARK
While racing, a boat shall not touch a starting mark before starting, a
mark that begins, bounds or ends the leg of the course on which she
is sailing, or a finishing mark after finishing.


44.1 Taking a Penalty
A boat may take a Two-Turns Penalty when she may have broken a
rule of Part 2 while racing or a One-Turn Penalty when she may
have broken rule 31.
Sailing instructions may specify the use of the
Scoring Penalty or some other penalty. However,
(a) when a boat may have broken a rule of Part 2 and rule 31 in the
same incident she need not take the penalty for breaking rule
31;
(b) if the boat caused injury or serious damage or gained a significant
advantage in the race or series by her breach her penalty
shall be to retire.

44.2 One-Turn and Two-Turns Penalties
After getting well clear of other boats as soon after the incident as
possible, a boat takes a One-Turn or Two-Turns Penalty by promptly
making the required number of turns in the same direction, each turn
including one tack and one gybe. When a boat takes the penalty at or
near the finishing line, she shall sail completely to the course side of
the line before finishing.


In short, if you touch the finish pin, you have to sail clear of all other nearby boats and completely to the course side of the finish line, complete one 360 degree turn (one tack & one gybe), and then finish properly.

You do not have to sail completely through the finish line in order to finish, you just need to break the plane of the line with your bow. However, if you hit the finish pin (or RC boat) then you have violated rule 31 and must complete your penalty turn and re-finish.

Yes, the 3-boat length circle applies to all of the marks of the course except for a starting mark surrounded by navigable water (i.e., there is no "room" at a starting mark).

sm




So I didn't finish properly because I touched the pin.. and needed to do a penalty circle before finishing properly and without penalty.

By not doing the penalty I should have been DSQ.

Got it.. Jeff win's.....

But I also had rights to be at the pin meaning Jeff needed to keep clear allowing me room to properly navigate around and away from the pin? Meaning if I had not touched the pin I would have been within my rights to use my room at the pin back away from the pin creating no more of an obstruction that required to sail my 'proper course' finishing the race without penalty... unless of course I was intentionally blocking the line for that reason alone... I understand I don't have the right to block the line.. But that was never my intent (not that I didn't possibly break a rule simply because I didn't mean to) He had more than enough time to avoid me instead of pinching for the pin also... But it would have put in him the same position with as I was with him with the boat behind him...


Also if a tack to port would have been required by me so close to the pin to make the line......(well inside the three boat circle) Then I would I have forfeited my rights at the mark? Or am I allowed to tack so long as I never take more than my fair share of space at the mark within the three boat circle?

Tacking solo in those conditions would have most certainly put me in his way no matter what within a minute of the line... My tacks are generally pretty good.. but on that day.. It was "Y" turning for sure... Would he at any point been required to allow me to tack to port to make the line? Or could I have tacked to port, most certainly creating an obstruction without penalty?







Thanks for entertaining my silly questions!!!!


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PostPosted: Wed Jun 20, 2012 10:23 am 
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Location: Jersey Shore
Yes, unless you did a penalty turn and re-finished, you should have been DSQ.

Initially you and Jeff were both on Starboard tack. You were clear ahead meaning you are the right of way boat. Had you been able to cross the line without hitting the pin, you still would have been right of way because even when he overlapped you, he did so on your windward side. A windward boat is required to keep clear of a boat to leeward. You (the leeward boat) are allowed to luff head to wind if necessary to clear the line and the windward boat must keep clear. However, once your bow crosses head to wind, you are now tacking. A boat that is tacking is required to keep clear of one that is not. Therefore you can not force your opponent to tack onto port...room at the mark has nothing to do with it. If you tack, you must keep clear.

Also, you are allowed to sail up to the line, get your bow across the line, and then back your sail to clear the line sailing in reverse. However, this is similar to the tacking rule, a boat sailing by backing a sail is required to keep clear of one that is not.

There really is no rule about blocking the finish line. Whether or not you can "block" the line is determined by the right of way rules between you and the boat you're trying to block. However a boat that has is not racing is required to do her best to keep clear of one that is racing. So if you haven't finished, you can do whatever you want (within the rules) to "block" the other boat.

Again, forget about the three boat length circle if you're going to tack. The second your bow crosses head to wind, the three boat length circle goes away... when approaching a windward mark or the finish pin, the boat on starboard has absolute right of way and is not required to allow a port tack boat to clear the mark.

Moral of the story is, if you find yourself in this situation in the future, the worst thing you can do is try to pinch to make the mark, especially if you know you aren't going to make it. All this does is slow you down and allow your competitor to gain on you making it impossible for you to tack. You should have footed, gained even more separation on him, and tacked across his bow. IMO, you would have had plenty of time to do this had you kept your speed up and not pinched, even if you didn't pull of the most perfect tack...either way, you ended up needing to tack to cross the line.

sm


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PostPosted: Thu Jun 21, 2012 10:52 am 
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Location: Clinton Lake, KS
THANKS!!!!

I appreciate your help making sure I understand the rules!


I think I got it..

As soon as I started drifting backwards I no longer had rights at the mark.. Meaning since Jeff didn't cause damage He wins.. If he had caused Damage.. Joel wins..

(although Jeff still should have given me room to respond which I was doing.. Looking at the tape I think I could have got out of his way quicker.. but not sure.. right at the end there I do tack to port... so.... )

Either way.. I always have more fun :mrgreen:

21.3
A boat moving astern by backing a sail shall
keep clear
of one that isnot.





Are there any exceptions or additions to the rules for radical wind shifts (certainly far beyond what is shown in the video?)????







This is stuff I am trying to soak up.. Hopefully it will help somebody

http://myaed.files.wordpress.com/2011/0 ... 9-2012.pdf





This didn't happen... But is also kinda relevant to this kind of ridiculous finish..

http://www.sailing.org/tools/documents/ ... 895%5D.pdf


This also looks like something we would do.. :lol:


The ruling here makes sense.. but is interesting.. I could see myself getting into the position of the goofy guy in the 'blue boat'

http://www.sailing.org/tools/documents/ ... 941%5D.pdf


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PostPosted: Fri Nov 08, 2013 5:54 pm 
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Joined: Mon Oct 14, 2013 3:23 pm
Posts: 48
augaug wrote:
I wish I could find a race like this. A "go out, have fun! We'll learn from our mistakes as we make them" kind of race.

That's the biggest turn off I have with racing.



This is a tough question. For those that have invested the time to learn the rules and good close quarters boat handling, what benefit is it to *them* for you to come race?

On the other hand many people at the club level take racing and themselves much too seriously. They forget that they were you once.

No easy answers, someone has to decide that having more people having more fun is a bigger deal that "winning" more pickle dishes.

So back to you: "It's not worth it to me to join a club, go through the classes, crew for someone else... then eventually, take the helm."

I get it, you want to drive without a license but everyone else on the race course expects you to know what a stop sign means. You want to race but you don't want to join a club and help pay for boats and marks and race committee lunches?

Sorry to sound harsh. When boats are bigger and your lack of knowledge results in a $40k hole in someone else's boat you can sort of see that it is important that everyone know at least the basic right of way rules.

Yes clubs and other racers could make it more fun and welcoming for newcomers. Expecting a newcomer to at least know the rules is not very much to ask.

Cheers,

Randy


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