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 Post subject: Re: TI FWD XBAR FAILURE
PostPosted: Thu Jun 07, 2012 3:02 pm 
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Location: Cape Coral, FL
NOHUHU wrote:
Thanks kayakman, you really need an answer to this issue.

And we need to define this issue better.

Is the problem Akas not inserting or are they too easily detached? Both?

Is the problem caused by old and new parts not matching? (Any bar upgrade would need new clips as well?)

Or are the factory tolerances the issue? (Any given clip might fit better than another). That's my experience.

Is it on the Aka side. The crossbar side?

What part numbers do we need to mix a perfect Aka cocktail?


I address these questions to everyone.


Only fully insertting. As it turns out the new x bar has much tighter tolerances most likely from lack of use. After playing with it, I found the slight twist in the aka was preventing full insertion.

Cheers,

J

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 Post subject: Re: TI FWD XBAR FAILURE
PostPosted: Thu Jun 07, 2012 3:19 pm 
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Location: Kailua 96734
So a slight rotation will lock it in place now?

Hope it doesn't walk loose on you.


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 Post subject: Re: TI FWD XBAR FAILURE
PostPosted: Thu Jun 07, 2012 7:11 pm 
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Location: Cape Coral, FL
NOHUHU wrote:
So a slight rotation will lock it in place now?

Hope it doesn't walk loose on you.

Yes, I suspect if I had put it together in the water I never would have noticed the issue. I also hope they don't come apart too! I think I wil rig up some safety lines to prevent the akas from coming loose.

Cheers,

J

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also a more manageable 100 square foot spinny...
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 Post subject: Re: TI FWD XBAR FAILURE
PostPosted: Fri Jun 08, 2012 3:01 am 
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Location: Cape Coral, FL
cliffs2yak wrote:
NOHUHU wrote:
NOHUHU wrote:
NOHUHU wrote:
BTW, we had a TI Xbar failure out here just last week.
Make that 2 in Hawaii! :cry: AUWE!
Make that 3 in Hawaii! :o Just heard about another.


I was hoping it was just a bad batch of xbars but it's starting to look like a "designed within cost contraints" thing...

Broke a few offroad suspension mounts to realize that it was best to weld up a box around the over stressed mount rather than rely on a single line of welds. Resulted in extra cost and weight after the repair but gain more confidence and less breakdowns out in the field.

c2y


Or perhaps they didn't know? And as soon as they did they engineered a better method? If they do a full recall, I think we wil know the answer!

There aren't any AI failures yet, right? Seems incredible that increasing the sail area by 33 sq ft and lengthening the mast by 2 feet could cause such a large difference in failure rates. That's leverage for you!

J

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also a more manageable 100 square foot spinny...
&
the TI3 rear ama mod


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 Post subject: Re: TI FWD XBAR FAILURE
PostPosted: Tue Jun 26, 2012 4:27 am 
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Joined: Sun Jan 16, 2011 9:18 pm
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Location: Virginia Beach, VA
I took my TI out this weekend. I had not had it out much since I bought the AI last year. Two things that started some worries:

1) When I tacked there would be a popping sound from the mast support. This did not happen all the time only when the stresses were greater.

2) When I got home I inspected the mast collar support welds. It looks like there is a hairline crack developing on the port side at the top of the weld line. The V-Brace seems tight.

===========================
My boat is the original 2010 model and I am or slightly over the 2 year mark. Will Hobie recognize this as a design problem after the warranty if I take it to my dealer? I do not mind installing the cross-arm my self.

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 Post subject: Re: TI FWD XBAR FAILURE
PostPosted: Tue Jun 26, 2012 5:43 am 
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Location: Cape Coral, FL
DogsLife wrote:
I took my TI out this weekend. I had not had it out much since I bought the AI last year. Two things that started some worries:

1) When I tacked there would be a popping sound from the mast support. This did not happen all the time only when the stresses were greater.

2) When I got home I inspected the mast collar support welds. It looks like there is a hairline crack developing on the port side at the top of the weld line. The V-Brace seems tight.

===========================
My boat is the original 2010 model and I am or slightly over the 2 year mark. Will Hobie recognize this as a design problem after the warranty if I take it to my dealer? I do not mind installing the cross-arm my self.


That's a shame Dogslife. Can't hurt to ask, though.

J

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2011 Golden Papaya TI with a 250 square foot spinnaker!
also a more manageable 100 square foot spinny...
&
the TI3 rear ama mod


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 Post subject: Re: TI FWD XBAR FAILURE
PostPosted: Tue Jun 26, 2012 9:41 am 
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Location: Palm City, Florida
Hello Dogslife,

Very sorry to hear this happened to your boat, but I'm certain Hobie will send a new dbl-weld Crossbar, as they have done for everyone who has reported this problem so far. When I replaced mine, I used Blue Loc-Tite on all the bolts including the ones that go into the brass inserts, which I cleaned out with compressed air beforehand. It's an easy replacement after that.

The good news is that we have now succeeded in bringing attention and awareness to this problem so that everyone (including Hobie) can be proactive. By looking at the weld on an old style Crossbar, we can see the "Grey Line" for what it is... a crack. I think it's only a matter of time (meaning sailing hours) before all if not most, of these Crossbars will need to be replaced.

Hobie recognized this was a design flaw when it first started happening last year and has stated as much. That's why they changed their production to a stronger, double weld/plate that goes all the way through the new Crossbars.
mmiller wrote:
This is an extreme load failure which we have seen a few times before. We have already made changes some time ago to the way this is assembled and welded. This corrects any consistency issues with the welding process that may have contributed to this type of failure. The plate now passes through the crossbar and is in contact with the back surface. Should be two welds (outer edges of the plates protrude through the back surface) on the back side of any crossbar with the newer process.

I don't understand why this has not recievied the attention it deserves and I want Hobie to recall all the old style Crossbars now, before some one gets seriously injured by a mast falling down and possibly hitting them.

They recalled the old Twist and Stow rudder and gave us a better functioning one (Thank You) but seriously, I don't remember hearing anyone ever saying that their old rudder flew off and hit them in the head. What are they waiting for?

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 Post subject: Re: TI FWD XBAR FAILURE
PostPosted: Tue Jun 26, 2012 3:43 pm 
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Location: Kailua 96734
Dawg,

Have you retightened the soc caps bolts holding the crossbars on?

Also, I wonder if this clunking could sometimes be caused by the mast riding up and down on the mast cup, pin, furling collar, etc. As opposed to pure sideslip of the crossbars.


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 Post subject: Re: TI FWD XBAR FAILURE
PostPosted: Tue Jun 26, 2012 8:24 pm 
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Joined: Fri Apr 16, 2010 7:32 pm
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Location: tampa, fl
Dogslife,
I am far from any dealer and Hobie and their great team worked out a new crossbar for me to install for free. I also had the small hairline crack. Real easy swap. the other knocking thing to check is the screws holding the mast pin in the bottom of the mast reciever.


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 Post subject: Re: TI FWD XBAR FAILURE
PostPosted: Wed Jun 27, 2012 4:26 am 
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Joined: Sun Jan 16, 2011 9:18 pm
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Location: Virginia Beach, VA
Yes the four screws at the bottom of the mast receiver were backing out. I have tightened them several times. I will have to pull the plate and re-seat them like i did on my AI.

My dealer is relatively close to my house. I will contact him this week and will report on my success or failures...

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 Post subject: Re: TI FWD XBAR FAILURE
PostPosted: Wed Jun 27, 2012 9:23 am 
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Joined: Mon Jul 19, 2010 7:53 am
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Location: Palm City, Florida
Dogslife,

The infamous Banging/Popping/Clunking sounds that come from where?... somewhere around the mast base area :roll: .

This has been discussed several times and because this "elusive sound" can only be heard under certain sailing conditions, it's difficult to diagnose. However, the following posts are very helpful to read up on.
viewtopic.php?f=75&t=36284
viewtopic.php?f=75&t=37442

In my case I believe it was a combination of factors:

1st. An improper factory setting of the V-Frame Base Assembly turnbuckles (I began hearing it when my boat was fairly new but just didn't know what to make of it). The turnbuckles have to exert just enough downward force on the base of the V-Frame to hold it tightly against the Screw Socket. Too much force will push the bottom of your boat out.

2nd. The original SS Screw Socket was not as strong as the new one. You can identify the new ones by their "slotted head", the original ones had a "socket head". I used blue Loc-Tite when I installed my new Screw Socket.

3rd. The single 1/4' Loc-Nut that held the Screw Socket in place was just loose enough to allow movement of the V-Frame Base, but only when there was a strain on the system; again under certain sailing conditions. I now have two nuts, tightened against each other on top of my Screw Socket and I keep an eye on them, although I've only had to re-tighten them once.

I agree that the sound could also be coming from the four screws at the bottom of the Mast Receiver being loose, or a combination of the above factors. These screws need to be installed with Blue Loc-Tite. I lightly taped a wood dowel to the end of the SS plate before lowering it back down the Mast Receiver with the screws in place, pre-wet with Loc-Tite. Then after securing it, I just twisted the dowel and took it (the dowel) out.

If you ever take your Mast Receiver completely out, look to see if there's scoring that matches the threads of the Screw Socket in the area where it went through. If there is, that's a pretty good indication that your Mast Receiver was moving back and forth with each tack of your sail, thus making the Banging/Popping/Clunking sounds. At least you'll know that :wink:.

Good luck and let us know how you make out.

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 Post subject: Re: TI FWD XBAR FAILURE
PostPosted: Wed Jun 27, 2012 1:30 pm 
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Anyone seen (heard) this behavior on an AI :?:


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 Post subject: Re: TI FWD XBAR FAILURE
PostPosted: Wed Jun 27, 2012 3:28 pm 
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Location: Maui, Hawaii
No, but I and most here on Maui have the old style aka.

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 Post subject: Re: TI FWD XBAR FAILURE
PostPosted: Sun Jul 01, 2012 5:23 pm 
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Joined: Mon Jul 24, 2006 4:52 pm
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Location: South Florida (Coral Springs)
I'm just now seeing this thread for the first time, and wow, what a potentially scary and dangerous failure to experience. Part of me kind of wishes I missed this since I now have something new to worry about. However, I'm glad I saw it because after inspecting my boat (delivered March 2010), I have noticed very distinct lines around much of the weld. In some areas, they're pretty wide where it appears the paint has flaked away.

My boat sees only very moderate use, but I don't do much light wind sailing. I don't usually bother to go out unless the winds are 10+. Given the looks of my weld, had I sailed more regularly, I fear I would have already had this unfortunate experience.


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 Post subject: Re: TI FWD XBAR FAILURE
PostPosted: Mon Jul 02, 2012 7:20 am 
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Location: Palm City, Florida
flaneur wrote:
My boat sees only very moderate use, but I don't do much light wind sailing. I don't usually bother to go out unless the winds are 10+. Given the looks of my weld, had I sailed more regularly, I fear I would have already had this unfortunate experience.

flaneur
Yes it is better to be aware of this problem now, than to have a more serious situation happen on the open water. However it is not yours, or any ones "fault".

These are our sailboats, or sailing kayaks with masts that ought to stay up when properly used in conditions that they were intended for. As owners we should not have to worry if our masts are going to fall down due to a manufactures defect.

Hobie has since corrected this problem (Thank you). They have designed a stronger, double welded bearing plate Crossbar assembly that all the new TI's have.

I just wish they would take a more pro active position by recalling the old style Crossbars now. In my opinion this is potentially a more serious safety issue than any problems ever associated with the old Twist and Stow Rudder on the TI. I don't understand why they have not issued a recall so far.

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2014 Tandem Island


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