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PostPosted: Sun Jul 15, 2012 2:47 am 
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Location: Forster, NSW, Australia
I had more fun today than I bargained for. Wind was around 15-20 knots blowing offshore. After a couple of hours of zapping around chasing whales (never getting closer than a mile or so), suddenly my TI started a pirouette. Neither rudder lever had any effect on the angle of the rudder.

I tried the usual range of options, steering with the paddle while sailing, pedalling or even just paddling, and the sloppy waves made progress virtually impossible. I then attempted getting a tow from another TI for steering, while I pedalled, but we were unable to make any real progress towards the shore.

So I retrieved the line and tried sailing again. Surprisingly, after partially furling the sail, I managed to get the TI sailing on port tack virtually HANDS FREE for more than 2 miles, but every time I tried tacking onto starboard, it kept rounding up, no matter what I did.

Eventually I had no option but to call Marine Rescue as I was being taken out to sea, and by the time a local fishing boat cae to tow me in, I had drifted a couple more miles away from shore.

I got drenched in the tow back home (about a pint of water inside my waders) and the bow wave even hit my face a few times!

Now, the point of all this... My theory is that starboard tack was too hard because the furled part of the sail was ruining airflow on the windward side of the sail (without a rudder, an unfurled sail was too powerful to control).

Any suggestions?

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2012 Tandem Island "SIC EM"
www.scenefromabove.com.au


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PostPosted: Sun Jul 15, 2012 2:58 am 
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Location: Terrigal NSW, Australia
Is the rudder responding now you are off the water? Did you try pulling the rudder up, then lowering it and cleating it down?

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PostPosted: Sun Jul 15, 2012 4:21 am 
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Location: Forster, NSW, Australia
No, unfortunately. The steering lines emerging from the hull are both slack, and neither rudder handle moves anything. I will have a look in the morning, as something has definitely come adrift internally. No doubt it will be a straightforward fix, but certainly not one which could have been done out on the water.

But I STILL had a great day! I love my TI!

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2012 Tandem Island "SIC EM"
www.scenefromabove.com.au


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PostPosted: Sun Jul 15, 2012 7:02 pm 
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Location: Cape Coral, FL
Hi Tony,

there are a couple of places to check, first: under the deck, are 2 tiller arms attached to the steering line. each has a rivet and the rudder line loops over it and is secured with a copper compression wire stop. these can and will fall off, which makes the whole system fail. adding a zip tie to each loop can eliminate the possibility of a loop falling off. the second place to check is the pulley at the end of the rudder line, the line can fall off the wheel into the space next to the pulley and gum up the works. The third thing to check is next the stern hatch where the rudder lines run though an eyelet and sometimes fall out of the eyelet.

read this post: http://www.hobiecat.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=71&t=41286&start=0
i did eventually replace the whole system with new and larger spectra. no knots and each loop is looped though the next loop so if one falls off a tiller arm the whole system still works at the other tiller. i also installed a closed eyelet near the rear hatch, i've had to much trouble with the OEM method.

you can see a detail of the loops in this post:
kayakman7 wrote:
I've noticed on several occasions that the tiller arm is too short, that the tiller can turned a full ninety degrees and not fully turn the rudder. A longer tiller arm should allow full use of the rudder but a longer tiller will be needed to compensate for the increased leverage of the longer tiller arm.

Image
the copper tube is filled with epoxy and increases the strength of the joint between the carbon fiber tube and the stainless tiller arm. nylon washers fit between the spring and boat and between the boat and the locking pin.

Image
the zip ties are merely insurance, the loops in the rudder line are too small to be removed

Image
I lengthened the tiller by drilling down the center and inserting a length of carbon fiber rod.

I can turn the rudder lock to lock with ninety degrees of tiller movement instead of 180 degrees. This will allow for some stretching of the rudder line and still maintain control.


rudders are the weak point of any vessel and the Hobie system seems to be designed for light duty. we have to make the best of it :D

cheers,

j

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2011 Golden Papaya TI with a 250 square foot spinnaker!
also a more manageable 100 square foot spinny...
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the TI3 rear ama mod


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PostPosted: Mon Jul 16, 2012 12:31 am 
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Location: Forster, NSW, Australia
Thanks for the detailed post. The dealer has informed me that one of the lines actually broke, which suggests to me an assembly error, where a line has been wrongly routed where it could be worn through with friction. I only launched my TI about 6 weeks ago, but have been using it 2-3 times a week.

It will be interesting to find out exactly where the problem was and why....

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2012 Tandem Island "SIC EM"
www.scenefromabove.com.au


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PostPosted: Mon Jul 16, 2012 3:15 am 
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Location: Cape Coral, FL
Broke?!? That's 100 pound + spectra line (made out of kevlar I believe), it's almost impossible to "wear" though it. The abrasive resistance is off the charts! Please post further details when you learn more!

I'm glad I replaced the OEM 1/16th" line with 7/64" when I overhauled the rudder system. Increased the strength ten-fold and a very minimal increase in weight.

J

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2011 Golden Papaya TI with a 250 square foot spinnaker!
also a more manageable 100 square foot spinny...
&
the TI3 rear ama mod


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PostPosted: Mon Jul 16, 2012 7:10 am 
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Location: Long Island NY
kayakman - whilst I like your mods, I cant let it go without saying ... Im shuddering with the thought of that carbon fiber rod splintering at the end and sending shards into your hand or other body part. At the least, I'd suggest a length of heat-shrink tubing over it protruding past the end by a good 1/4 inch

... or even a good few wraps of everyman's favorite remedy - Duct tape. You could also wick cyanoacrylate glue (crazy glue) but I dont think that would be permanent

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His/Hers Papaya Hobie Adventure Island's
.. and a Hobie Outback SUV


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PostPosted: Mon Jul 16, 2012 7:23 am 
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Location: Cape Coral, FL
Passwind,

The whole rod is covered with west systems clear epoxy, but you make a good point. I will put some fancy knot work over it, turks head at each end and some neat knot work covering the rest.
Thanks

J

I know exactly what you mean. When working with the carbon fiber, I found even the dust to be extremely nasty, itchy, and painful.

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2011 Golden Papaya TI with a 250 square foot spinnaker!
also a more manageable 100 square foot spinny...
&
the TI3 rear ama mod


Last edited by kayakman7 on Mon Jul 16, 2012 7:26 am, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Mon Jul 16, 2012 7:24 am 
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Location: Forster, NSW, Australia
Kayakman, I will certainly let you know when I hear more from the dealer.

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2012 Tandem Island "SIC EM"
www.scenefromabove.com.au


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PostPosted: Mon Jul 16, 2012 9:21 pm 
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Location: Forster, NSW, Australia
I just had a look at the waxy line. Yes, it definitely failed!. The end tapered approximately to a point (eg not a cut). There was about 3 feet coming out of the middle hatch, so the line parted that distance either forward or aft of that point. The service guy wasn't available, so I couldn't get any more information.

I have now made up some 4 inch long carbon fibre "fingers" which I will bolt to the the top of the flat section of the rudder, using the existing screw plus an SS nut and bolt, and fit an SS ring to a hole at the outer end, the extra length improving the leverage. On the starboard side I will set up a bungee cord, adjustable from my seat, while on the port side I will rig a 2mm 100kg breaking strain polyester cord forward, where it can be attached to a crossbar I will fit to the tiller lever in an emergency.

This will mean that the tiller will steer the TI either through the internal control lines, or through the back-up external ones. Photos will definitely follow!

In normal circumstances, the back-up steering system will sit in the mesh pockets at the rear seat (I currently drive from the front seat), but would obviously need shortening if I moved to the back seat.

Perhaps it was because I was in the front seat, but I was basically unsuccessful in steering with a paddle despite trying lots of alternatives for almost two hours, and I will no longer venture offshore until I have rigged up an effective back-up steering system.

I would like to recommend that all of you experiment by raising your rudder in different wind strengths to find out for yourselves if you can control your Island without a rudder. Better in practice than when the excrement hits the rotary evaporative device...:)

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2012 Tandem Island "SIC EM"
www.scenefromabove.com.au


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PostPosted: Mon Jul 16, 2012 9:50 pm 
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Location: Cape Coral, FL
That's an interesting idea, I think it has potential. I've been planning bolting a tube to the side of the rudder, which would fit my stake anchor.

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2011 Golden Papaya TI with a 250 square foot spinnaker!
also a more manageable 100 square foot spinny...
&
the TI3 rear ama mod


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PostPosted: Tue Jul 17, 2012 2:12 pm 
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Location: Long Island NY
You've re-kindled an idea I had last year but forgot about - having a removeable oar mount to attach to the rear Aka and using a flat paddle as the rudder.

... I lost a rudder pin in pretty severe fun and the only means of stearing was with the kayak curved paddle by hand - not too goodly.

I now carry a collapsable canoe paddle (flat blade) in the hull but forgot about experimenting with a removeable Oar lock.

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Alan W.
His/Hers Papaya Hobie Adventure Island's
.. and a Hobie Outback SUV


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PostPosted: Tue Jul 17, 2012 3:18 pm 
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Location: Kailua 96734
For AI owners, I have a solution for you for around $50. Not installed or tested yet- so stand by with your $$. :wink:

But for now, just double bungee-ball a long SUP or T-handle paddle to your rear Aka (about a foot from your hull).

Last time I needed to do this, I wrapped self-stick velcro tape to "oar-lock" the paddle to the bar.

You can try this from the front seat of a TI or strap it to the soft carry handle in the rear cockpit.


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PostPosted: Tue Jul 17, 2012 4:47 pm 
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Location: Forster, NSW, Australia
I found steering with the paddle from the front seat pretty useless, and when you think about it, it makes sense. The only way a paddle in that location can "steer" is by increasing drag on the side it is immersed. I tried using it as a rudder, and despite the forces being strong enough to almost snap the paddle "pole" (ie big visible bend in it), the TI was not really responding. No doubt it would have been far more effective at the rear of the hull (which is where they put the rudder in the first place).

I think if I should lose the use of my rudder again (eg pin breaking) I will move into the back seat and lash the paddle as you suggest.

But lightning never strikes twice does it.... :)

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2012 Tandem Island "SIC EM"
www.scenefromabove.com.au


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PostPosted: Tue Jul 17, 2012 6:38 pm 
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Location: Kailua 96734
Oh- the rudder WILL break again, no worries. You just never know WHICH part it will be. :lol:

It's rare for these lines to wear through and fail, but it happens. Thanks for proving that.

BTW, in most cases of AI/TI rudder upgrades, the 2 internal lines are only held together with a slip knot. So that connection could give without an actual break.

Tony, I really like your external line suggestion and would like to see picts, when you are done. If the screws holding the tiller line were replaced with small eyebolts, it would be a breeze to snap on a couple temporary hand lines.

Still, when the rudder housing fails, we need skills and a plan B. If conditions are not too ruff, we calculate a long SUP pole may do it from the front seat, but a short/wide/stiff canoe paddle from the rear is most effective. Keeping a small sail and pedaling should help. (After all, Hawaiian outrigger canoes are manually steered by this method and they are from 30-45ft long, weigh up to 400lb and are much faster...)

Mind you, I have not tried these techniques on a tandem yet, as I have on the AI, but I'll try them on our next TI3 test flight and if the sail doesn't kick my arse, I'll report back. :wink:


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