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PostPosted: Mon Jul 23, 2012 10:35 am 
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I own a 2012 PA14 that I bought a few months ago and love it. I am excited about the release of the new PA12 and am happy for all of the new owners of that boat. There are some features on the PA12 that I would like to see on the PA14.

Now having said that, I have to take issue with some of the claims I've been reading from the PA12 owners that it has a greater top speed than the PA14. From my background in physics and 38 years of experience paddling and racing canoes and kayaks, this would seem to be physically impossible. The PA12 and PA14 have virtually identical hull designs and their weights are very close. The only appreciable difference is the waterline length of the two hulls. Since they are both displacement hulls (unless some of you pedal fast enough to get one up on a plane 8) ), they follow the basic formula, Hull Speed = 1.34 x Sq. Root [waterline length]. This works out to a hull speed for the PA 12 of 4.64 miles/hr and 5.01 miles/hr for the PA14. This isn't an earth-shattering difference, but probably enough to notice, and there's certainly no way the PA 12 should be faster. It should accelerate a little bit faster, because of it's lighter weight (less mass), but once up to the hull speed, it should be slower.

Once again, we're all on the same team here and I'm not trying to drive a wedge between PA12 & PA14 owners. I just don't think that top speed is an advantage that the PA12 holds over the PA14. I have not tested both boats, so I hesitate to bring this up, but it's hard to argue with basic principles of physics. All things being approximately equal, a longer water line length will be faster. My 18' Grumman canoe would easily glide past a 16' Grumman, even though the 16 footer was lighter.


Ron Wilson


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PostPosted: Mon Jul 23, 2012 11:41 am 
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Both them can be pushed faster than the speeds you mention with motorized power.

As far as pedaling, I've only pedaled the 14. I would have no idea if the same effort would move you faster or not in the 12.


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PostPosted: Mon Jul 23, 2012 1:00 pm 
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I don't understand why a displacement hull design that is roughly 20% lighter and a few inches narrower cannot move thru the water with less energy. Does the PA12 sit lower in the water? Just trying to wrap my mind around this. Thanks.


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PostPosted: Mon Jul 23, 2012 1:04 pm 
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No idea, you would think that something a bit more narrow could slice through the water more efficiently.
All I know is that my friend (who owns a PA14) and I were trying to outrun a storm last weekend and I was able to catch up and pass him. We were both "putting down the hammer".
Not exactly an objective test, but if the PA14 is faster than the PA12 it's not by a lot.


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PostPosted: Mon Jul 23, 2012 1:52 pm 
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Can't argue with physics Sheldon. Here is another post that came out with the same results. The 14 is faster. I would not think it, lengh vs weight and width of the beam.
viewtopic.php?f=78&t=43913
I am still torn on which one to buy. I know from experience that If I have to get out the way of an approaching storm, I want all the speed I can get. I am even considering ocean fishing out of a revolution 13. I wish we had a way to compare speed with all the models.


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PostPosted: Mon Jul 23, 2012 1:59 pm 
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So what your saying Ron is the Revolution 13 should have a speed of 4.9 miles/hr.


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PostPosted: Mon Jul 23, 2012 2:06 pm 
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Tim Antoine wrote:
So what your saying Ron is the Revolution 13 should have a speed of 4.9 miles/hr.


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PostPosted: Mon Jul 23, 2012 2:06 pm 
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I don't understand why all the hype over the individual speeds. There are too many variables that can affect the speed and the main one is the human variable. We're all different with different capabilities.

Conditions on the water can affect the speed and how each Hobie model reacts in those conditions. Add differences in weight to what an angler is carrying (or has sticking up in the wind) and that's another modifier.

I tend to agree with one factor when it comes to folks that fish on big water (either fresh or saltwater)...if it's that important that you need to have speed when you need it most, then augment the pedaling with something motorized.

Every boat Hobie makes has unique qualities that can be applied differently for different folks depending on use. Trying to determine a standard or a projected speed for each model makes no sense to me. It probably would not serve Hobie's best interest to publish projected speeds for each model.

While this forum offers a wealth of information on every aspect of kayak fishing and the Pro Angler (12 and 14), it just boils down to us individually to decide what works for us.

Just my humble 2 cents worth...

_________________
Steve Stubbs
USAF (retired)

2013 Pro Angler 14 - Dune
2012 Pro Angler 14 - Dune


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PostPosted: Mon Jul 23, 2012 2:14 pm 
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Beep Beep, move over please so I can pass you in my PA 12 :mrgreen:


Last edited by islandspeed2001 on Mon Jul 23, 2012 3:40 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Mon Jul 23, 2012 2:37 pm 
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The Revolution 13 will easily outrun either of the PA's - it'll do 7 MPH in a sprint (maybe even faster with somebody else pedaling) and cruise easily at 3 to 5.

I own 4 Hobies and every single one of them will run one heck of lot faster than the theoretical hull speed. I'm not arguing with physics - I'm saying it's not being applied correctly. You can keep any of these boats going faster and faster until and unless you can no longer steer them in a straight line. And none of them hits the wall at just 4 or 5 MPH. The only limit as they ship is your ability to pedal the Mirage Drive.


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PostPosted: Mon Jul 23, 2012 3:19 pm 
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This is exactly what I referred to in my original comparison of the PA 12 vs PA 14 in another thread. Its really hard to get your head around this. That the PA 14 is easier to peddle than the PA 12. I can tell you I have tested it with GPS equipment and I have had non Kayak peddlers do the test too with the same results. I own the PA 12 and the PA 14 and they are both great boats and people just need to find what fits them best. But the ease of peddling over a long distance is certainly a factor and I would recommend testing them both for your own comfort.

I also own a revolution 11 and a revolution 13...... Guess what? The 13 is faster in the same GPS test as we did on the PA 12 vs the PA 14. Not sure why other than the engineers I have spoken with confirmed that the longer boats even it a little wider will always be faster and easier to propel. Just like offshore racing boats and sailboats. However, you can reach a point of diminishing returns.

At the end of the day it doesn't really matter much. Peddle what you like and what fits your individual needs.

I


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PostPosted: Mon Jul 23, 2012 4:14 pm 
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First of all, the formula I gave calculates the speed in knots, not miles/hr. That would change the figures I gave to PA12 = 5.34 miles/hr and PA14 = 5.77 miles/hr. Sorry for the mistake.

Hull Speed is not the maximum speed that a given boat can reach. It's supposed to be the point, where in order to go faster, the boat has to climb up over its bow wave. This can be done, but takes a disproportionate amount of effort for the amount of speed increase you get. Racing kayakers exceed the hull speeds all the time, but they're putting out a lot of effort. Furthermore, the formula I gave is just a general formula for displacement hulls and probably doesn't accurately transition to the narrower hulls of pure kayaks. The Revolution 13, which is closer to a true kayak, is certainly not the same hull design as the PA's, so that's comparing apples to oranges.

The PA12 & PA14, however, are nearly identical in hull design and fairly close in weight. Regardless of which formula you use, if the two boats you're comparing are fairly similar, a longer waterline will generally result in a faster boat. That was the only point I was trying to make. As I said before, there's probably not that much difference anyway. I was just having trouble seeing how the shorter PA12 could be faster?




Tom Kirkman wrote:
The Revolution 13 will easily outrun either of the PA's - it'll do 7 MPH in a sprint (maybe even faster with somebody else pedaling) and cruise easily at 3 to 5.

I own 4 Hobies and every single one of them will run one heck of lot faster than the theoretical hull speed. I'm not arguing with physics - I'm saying it's not being applied correctly. You can keep any of these boats going faster and faster until and unless you can no longer steer them in a straight line. And none of them hits the wall at just 4 or 5 MPH. The only limit as they ship is your ability to pedal the Mirage Drive.


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PostPosted: Mon Jul 23, 2012 4:54 pm 
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I don't know this, but I'm guessing that the 12 probably sits a little lower in the water than the 14. While around 15% lighter, the difference in width and length probably result in a boat that with the same person and tackle, rides a little lower in the water. More wetted surface should result in a lower speed for the same effort.


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