Hobie Cat Forums

It is currently Thu Jul 24, 2014 4:21 pm

All times are UTC - 8 hours [ DST ]




Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 135 posts ]  Go to page 1, 2, 3, 4, 5 ... 9  Next
Author Message
 Post subject: Mast Support Fail
PostPosted: Tue Jul 24, 2012 8:09 am 
Offline
Site Rank - Captain

Joined: Sun Dec 04, 2011 2:40 pm
Posts: 80
I was out sailing my TI on a small lake in light winds and noticed that the mast was tilting back more than usual when I sheeted in... and the deck around the mast support was flexing with this movement. So, I carefully furled the sail, peddled back to the ramp, and inspected the mast support area inside the hull. The mast receiver/housing (name?) had shifted forward a couple inches at the bottom (due to a broken brass or bronze hull-embedded nut below, which I found out when I got home and removed everything around it).

So, has this happened to anyone else? There must be a great deal of stress on this area of a stay-less rig. The large hardware below seems ample for side-to-side pressure, but for fore-aft pressure, this sole nut/bolt through the bottom may not be sufficient for the load.

I just bought the TI new (2012) this year, and I have notified the dealer with pics of what happened, so I am hoping for a quick response and shipment of new parts.

This could have been much worse had the wind been stronger... and I had been out farther (and on the ocean). I am hopeful that Hobie can get me back out quickly and soundly...

Thanks, guys!

Scott


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Mast Support Fail
PostPosted: Tue Jul 24, 2012 4:33 pm 
Offline
Site Rank - Admiral

Joined: Mon Jul 19, 2010 7:53 am
Posts: 299
Location: Palm City, Florida
SailScott,

Glad to hear you're OK. The same thing happened to me and several other TI owners in the last year or two. It's a bit unnerving but sounds like you handled it well :wink: .

From what you're describing I'd say it's a broken Screw Socket. If you can post some pictures for us, we might be better able to help you. If that's what it is, it's a relatively easy fix and covered by your warranty - not to worry.

In the meanwhile, look on the top of the broken screw. If it has a slotted top it's the newer stronger type. If it has a hex or Allen socket type head, it's the older weaker screw.

Either way, this is a little unusual to hear on such a new boat unless the V-Frame Assembly was not adjusted properly at the factory, or the loc-nut on top of the Screw Socket was loose.

While you're waiting for your new parts it would be good to read up on this issue.
viewtopic.php?f=75&t=36284

Let us know how you make out and good luck.

_________________
Sun E Sailor
Ezra Appel
Palm City, Florida
2014 Tandem Island


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Mast Support Fail
PostPosted: Tue Jul 24, 2012 6:38 pm 
Offline
Site Rank - Old Salt

Joined: Wed Oct 19, 2011 6:02 am
Posts: 322
Location: Cape Coral, FL
I have the older weaker screw, is the new one a free replacement or does it have to break?

J

_________________
2011 Golden Papaya TI with a 250 square foot spinnaker!
also a more manageable 100 square foot spinny...
&
the TI3 rear ama mod


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Mast Support Fail
PostPosted: Tue Jul 24, 2012 10:35 pm 
Offline
Site Rank - Captain

Joined: Sun Dec 04, 2011 2:40 pm
Posts: 80
Thanks for the response... I am still waiting for a response from the dealer (AustinKayak) and/or Hobie... Here is a link to the photo:

https://sphotos-b.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos- ... 9227_n.jpg

I think that the nut (not the bolt) sheared off as there is another part of it still in the bottom of the hull. I wonder how I will extract that?

I've read other posts regarding the "tack-knock!" syndrome and wondering if this is related...?

I'd feel better if this fitting was a LOT more beefed up. I do not want this to happen again, especially if I'm out in more challenging conditions.

Thanks.
Scott


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Mast Support Fail
PostPosted: Wed Jul 25, 2012 4:02 am 
Offline
Site Rank - Old Salt

Joined: Fri Mar 23, 2007 8:12 am
Posts: 419
Location: Florida
That looks like the the brass piece that is inserted into the hull during the plastic molding process. I too am curious as to how this is going to get fixed, particularly since this is in the bottom of the hull. Not an owner of a TI, have an AI instead but they also use brass inserts.

Please keep us informed of how you fair with the repair process. Hope you get back on the water soon.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Mast Support Fail
PostPosted: Wed Jul 25, 2012 4:35 am 
Offline
Site Rank - Admiral

Joined: Thu Apr 08, 2010 9:59 am
Posts: 245
Location: Plant City, Fl.
Image
Hobie replaced my hull.

:mrgreen:

_________________
“Remember life is short- eat dessert first.”
The world is 70% water – So that means we should spend 70% more time sailing than mowing lawns!
Larry


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Mast Support Fail
PostPosted: Wed Jul 25, 2012 6:23 am 
Offline
Site Rank - Old Salt

Joined: Fri Mar 23, 2007 8:12 am
Posts: 419
Location: Florida
larryhts wrote:
Hobie replaced my hull.
:mrgreen:


That is what I figured would have to happen. Theoretically one could drill out the insert leaving a hole through the bottom of the boat and replace it with some kind of SS carriage bolt and big flat washers for support inside the hull. Making the fitting water proof would be the hard part especially with the flexing involved.

A harder solution is to build an internal frame attached to the existing "Y" support that would provide an anchor point without drilling a hole in the bottom of the boat.

It is a good thing Hobie has such a great warranty.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Mast Support Fail
PostPosted: Wed Jul 25, 2012 8:42 am 
Offline
Site Rank - Admiral

Joined: Mon Jul 19, 2010 7:53 am
Posts: 299
Location: Palm City, Florida
SailScott,

Sorry, that doesn't look good at all :o :shock: :( .

It appears that your brass insert, molded into the hull, came out taking the Screw Socket with it. I doubt this is repairable - I've never seen it happen before. However, I'm certain Hobie will do the right thing for you whatever that turns out to be :wink: .

I totally agree, that this particular area of the boat could be "beefier" because of the opposing forces being placed on it. Then again this is the only reported incident of this nature that I've heard of. It could be something that just happened to your boat during the manufacturing process... an isolated occurrence?

In all other instances it was the older style Screw Socket that broke first. I believe this happens when there's "play" in the system i.e. loose fittings, nuts and Turnbuckles.

Hobie has since replaced the Screw Socket with a new, stronger stainless steel bolt (Thank You Hobie). I still say that proper adjustment and maintenance of the V-Frame Turnbuckles and tightly securing the Screw Socket to the V-Frame Base with either a loc-nut (I use double nuts), reduces the possibility for movement, weather you have the new or old style Screw Socket.

Hang in there and let us know what happens.

kayakman7 wrote:
I have the older weaker screw, is the new one a free replacement or does it have to break?

J

I Don't know? I only received a new one when my original one broke.
:!: When I replaced mine, I used Blue Loc-Tite (as per Hobie's instructions) on the end of the Screw Socket, before screwing it back in to the brass insert.

_________________
Sun E Sailor
Ezra Appel
Palm City, Florida
2014 Tandem Island


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Mast Support Fail
PostPosted: Wed Jul 25, 2012 10:30 am 
Offline
Site Rank - Old Salt

Joined: Tue Jul 19, 2005 6:29 pm
Posts: 1986
Location: High Point, NC
Mine was split in the same area - both sides of the bottom hull brass insert. The boat was brand new, only in the water once and even then only very, very light winds (single digit MPH).

Image

I traced the culprit back to the rigid V-Truss which was putting undue strain on the mounting studs. These plastic hulls aren't ever going to be verbatim and therefore the V-Truss needs larger mounting holes to accommodate small variations from hull to hull.

When I removed the truss assembly, it sounded like a gun had gone off. To put it back on after making the repair (plastic welding) I would have had to use a great deal of force, which I didn't want to do because of the suspicion that this is what caused the original problem. So I elongated the mounting holes in the Truss just a bit, which allowed the truss to slip back on easily, with no pre-stress on the hull mounting studs or brass inserts.

Even if the studs and mounting points were beefier, the Truss mounting holes need to be large enough to accommodate these small variances from hull to hull.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Mast Support Fail
PostPosted: Wed Jul 25, 2012 1:25 pm 
Offline
Site Rank - Captain

Joined: Sun Dec 04, 2011 2:40 pm
Posts: 80
Well, it's nice to know that I'm not alone... but a bit frightening to think that others (with a 2012 like mine or likely an older AI or TI) could experience a similar fail (and subsequent leak) with much worse damage while out in much rougher conditions.

Here's one more pic of the aftermath (not much damage to the plastic hull, just a sheared off nut, I think):
https://sphotos-a.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos- ... 3061_n.jpg

The dealer (AustinKayak) says that Hobie will be shipping "a brand new boat", so if that's the case, good for Hobie. I think I am supposed to cut out (literally!?) the HIN and send it to the dealer, but I'm waiting to be sure before I hack up the main hull... then recycle it(?)...

I'll let you know how it plays out, but it is a bit frustrating right in the middle of the summer (my vacation) being left high and dry. (At least I can vent on this forum! You guys are a great support! Thanks.)

I will definitely inspect and adjust/tune (if necessary) the mast base support components on the new hull. Any suggestions on how to do this correctly?

Take care, all.

Scott


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Mast Support Fail
PostPosted: Wed Jul 25, 2012 1:36 pm 
Offline
Site Rank - Old Salt

Joined: Tue Jul 19, 2005 6:29 pm
Posts: 1986
Location: High Point, NC
When you reinstall the V-Truss, make sure it slips onto the studs (2-upper and 1-lower) easily. If you have to twist, bend or force anything it in order to get it mounted, you're very likely to have problems eventually. Doing that places a great deal of pre-stress on the studs and hull.

If you happen to run into that problem, I would advise taking a round file and slightly elongating the mounting holes in the V-Truss. You don't have a lot of material there to play with, but you have enough to do what needs to be done.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Mast Support Fail
PostPosted: Wed Jul 25, 2012 2:45 pm 
Offline
Site Rank - Admiral

Joined: Mon Jul 19, 2010 7:53 am
Posts: 299
Location: Palm City, Florida
Scott,
Glad to hear you'll be getting a new boat from Hobie, I suspected they would probably be doing this. Hopefully this is all you'll have to deal with and the rest will be just periodic maintenance, but most of all, you'll have many happy sailing days in the future :) .

Your new boat (should) not need any adjustments in this area, however it's always good to read up on what things (can) happen and what might precipitate their occurrence. Like the post I mentioned before: viewtopic.php?f=75&t=36284&start=15
and the related articles contained within it. The Forum is a great resource for this and we all benefit from our experiences :wink: .

_______________________________

Tom,
That's right, yours had a similar issue and other problems as well - how could I have forgotten about all that :?. In any case, you say that:
Tom Kirkman wrote:
....So I elongated the mounting holes in the Truss just a bit, which allowed the truss to slip back on easily, with no pre-stress on the hull mounting studs or brass inserts.

Even if the studs and mounting points were beefier, the Truss mounting holes need to be large enough to accommodate these small variances from hull to hull.

I'm not sure why you had to "elongate" the mounting holes to get the V-Frame Assembly back in position. Unless I'm not understanding you correctly, I wouldn't have recommend doing that.

Turning the Turnbuckles in shortens their length, which allows you to easily remove the assembly. Turning them out expands it, allowing you to fit the V-Frame back over the Screw Socket and down again. I believe that sound you heard, "like a gun going off" was because you hadn't taken the load off the unit before trying to remove it.

_________________
Sun E Sailor
Ezra Appel
Palm City, Florida
2014 Tandem Island


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Mast Support Fail
PostPosted: Wed Jul 25, 2012 2:51 pm 
Offline
Site Rank - Old Salt

Joined: Tue Jul 19, 2005 6:29 pm
Posts: 1986
Location: High Point, NC
No that's not it. The truss is square - the hull is not. My starboard mounting stud is about 3/8ths of an inch behind the port mounting stud (I suspect all are off by a bit). The truss is made to fit studs that are directly across from each other.

No amount of shortening nor lengthening of the truss rods is going to accommodate the fact that the mounting studs aren't all directly across from each other. To mount the one on my boat, somebody in the Hobie assembly department had to really lean on the starboard truss rod to get it back far enough to fit on the stud. So when I removed it by shortening the truss rod, when it finally pulled down enough (and that was hard to do) to come off the stud, it released with a loud "BANG" as it sprang back into its original shape.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Mast Support Fail
PostPosted: Wed Jul 25, 2012 3:26 pm 
Offline
Site Rank - Old Salt

Joined: Tue May 18, 2010 2:31 pm
Posts: 2654
Location: Kailua 96734
Tom, I understand why you did this, but your hull is an anomaly. If a V-brace does not line up with all the brass inserts/posts, this is something that an owner should address first with Hobie.

Enlarging the V-frame holes is not something that is needed or recommended for anyone else, as it could induce more slop in most boats once the sail/hull start flexing.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Mast Support Fail
PostPosted: Wed Jul 25, 2012 3:48 pm 
Offline
Site Rank - Old Salt

Joined: Tue Jul 19, 2005 6:29 pm
Posts: 1986
Location: High Point, NC
I didn't know it was in this sort of pre-stressed condition until I removed it. However, knowing that that port and starboard sides were not even, I should have suspected it.

What I'm talking about doing doesn't introduce any slop or play. The Truss is still bolted down and the posts lengthened to provide what they're supposed to. You can lift my AI by the Truss and shake it, and there is no play nor wobble in the least. It's solid as a rock, but no longer pre-stresses the mounting bolts and hull.

Also note that I only mentioned doing this if the user found it difficult to install the Truss without using force (which you shouldn't have to do). None of these hulls are going to be perfectly square. The Truss needs to be able to accommodate small variances from hull to hull without being bent and/or forced into place.


Top
 Profile  
 
Display posts from previous:  Sort by  
Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 135 posts ]  Go to page 1, 2, 3, 4, 5 ... 9  Next

All times are UTC - 8 hours [ DST ]


Who is online

Users browsing this forum: SpringAI and 4 guests


You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum

Search for:
Jump to:  
Powered by phpBB® Forum Software © phpBB Group