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 Post subject: Breaking Rudder Pins
PostPosted: Mon Jul 30, 2012 6:14 am 
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Had a great day sailing saturday until I broke a rudder pin again. This will be the third set of fiberglass pins that I will have put into the boat. I really do not want to go to the alluminum/stainless pins as I have seen that damage that comes from a transom giving out. So any idea's why they would keep shearing like they have been. Boat was headed to wind both times and not really loaded up. I have checked rudder alignment and it was good and I really do not have any tiller tug. The boat has epo rudders if that would make a diffence. Any help it all is really appreciated.


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 Post subject: Re: Breaking Rudder Pins
PostPosted: Mon Jul 30, 2012 7:29 am 
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Joined: Mon May 09, 2005 10:25 am
Posts: 2551
Location: Jersey Shore
pelican wrote:
So any idea's why they would keep shearing like they have been.


The reason is simple, fiberglass pins are not strong enough to support the load you're putting on them. The solution is also simple, use a stronger material - stainless steel. The transom is PLENTY strong enough to support the sailing loads. The only time people have problems is if they hit something and their rudder doesn't kick up (i.e. poorly adjusted/maintained rudders), or they get driven backwards on a wave going out through the surf and the rudder hits bottom. In both of these cases, many times the rudder casting will break rather than the transom.

I use stainless pins on all of my boats, including my beach boat with no problems. On a H18, using any material other than stainless is a bad idea IMO. If you insist on using fiberglass pins, then I would suggest you carry a good stock of spares with you (on the boat).

Quote:
Boat was headed to wind both times and not really loaded up. I have checked rudder alignment and it was good and I really do not have any tiller tug. The boat has epo rudders if that would make a diffence. Any help it all is really appreciated.


For reference, when heading "to wind" (I assume you mean you were sailing upwind), is when you put the most load on the rudders. Nearly all of the sail's driving force is off to the side on this point of sail and the rudders play a large role in counteracting this side force. If your helm is well balanced, then you won't feel much added load on the tiller, but the rudder pins will be under a lot of strain. Also, using EPO rudders may increase the load on the pins since they are stiffer and deflect less than plastic rudders.

sm


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 Post subject: Re: Breaking Rudder Pins
PostPosted: Mon Jul 30, 2012 6:35 pm 
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Joined: Mon Dec 31, 2007 6:06 pm
Posts: 610
Location: SE PA/ Chesapeak Bay
Hi,

Try Murrays Marine ... they make a "hollow" SS Rudder Pin that is lighter and stiffer then the "solid" Hobie SS rudder pins ....

I never bent a Murrays Rudder Pin ... but I have bent several Hobie SS Pins ....

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HarryMurphey
H-18 mag/ #9458
Fleet 54 Div 11


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 Post subject: Re: Breaking Rudder Pins
PostPosted: Tue Jul 31, 2012 6:14 am 
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Joined: Wed Jun 30, 2010 2:24 pm
Posts: 110
Location: Todd Mission, Texas
I had a set of Al pins, when I got my boat in 1994. Replaced with stainless when I upgraded the rudder system. Found the Al set the other day, it was amazing to see how they had worn. SS pins and the Hobie 17 rudder upgrade are the way to go.

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Jeff
1986 Hobie 18 #13031


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 Post subject: Re: Breaking Rudder Pins
PostPosted: Tue Jul 31, 2012 7:53 am 
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Joined: Thu Sep 24, 2009 5:50 am
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Another vote for SS pins, especially since it sounds like your fiberglass pins are breaking under sail rather than when you're crashing in and out of the surf. Water pressure alone is never going to damage your transoms and the SS pins weigh next to nothing.


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 Post subject: Re: Breaking Rudder Pins
PostPosted: Tue Jul 31, 2012 4:33 pm 
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Joined: Wed Aug 10, 2011 6:28 pm
Posts: 323
Location: Raleigh, North Carolina
Have you tried Nylon Pins? I sail in the surf and they hold up fairly well. I replace them when they start to wear. They don't shatter like the fiberglass pins do and seem to last longer.

I have kept my boat on the beach many summers and have busted a rudder, ripped out gudgeons, and cracked a transom over the years. I'm not sure I agree about stainless being the best idea for the surf. I guess it depends on where you sail and how big the waves are.

100% agree if you are going to use pens that break you'd better have a good multi tool and extra set of pins /w cotters on your boat. Where you crash land with one rudder attached can be a long walk home.

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Garrett
94' H16 - 114050
www.HobieFleet97.org
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 Post subject: Re: Breaking Rudder Pins
PostPosted: Wed Aug 01, 2012 3:34 am 
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Joined: Mon May 09, 2005 10:25 am
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Location: Jersey Shore
I know people that have broken nylon and aluminum pins on the 18 simply while sailing along. This results in having to try to sail the boat in with one rudder flopped on the tramp... this is considerably more difficult than it may sound.

For me, I'd rather take my chances in the surf with a stainless pin and know full well that when I get out, my rudder system isn't going anywhere.

sm


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 Post subject: Re: Breaking Rudder Pins
PostPosted: Wed Aug 01, 2012 3:51 am 
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Joined: Sun Aug 26, 2007 5:40 am
Posts: 410
Location: Metuchen NJ
I have used all three types of rudder pins over the years on both a H16 and H18. The nylon pins degrade rapidly from the sun's UV rays, making them brittle. Aluminum pins wear at the gudgeons creating slop and difficult removal. Stainless pins can get bent, but are the best overall.

In a lapse of judgement I forgot to switch out the nylon pins on my H16 during an ocean regatta many years ago. On the course's reach along the shore, the port side pin broke and took the rudder and casting to the bottom in an instant.

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Chris
'88 H18SE Arís


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 Post subject: Re: Breaking Rudder Pins
PostPosted: Wed Aug 01, 2012 5:44 pm 
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Joined: Wed Aug 10, 2011 6:28 pm
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Location: Raleigh, North Carolina
Sounds like we are choosing the lesser of evils. :lol:

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Garrett
94' H16 - 114050
www.HobieFleet97.org
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 Post subject: Re: Breaking Rudder Pins
PostPosted: Sat Aug 04, 2012 6:11 am 
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Joined: Mon Aug 02, 2010 5:12 pm
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I make my own al pins by buying rod from the hardware store. They cost just a few bucks and can be changed as soon as they show appreciable wear. Easy and cheap enough to carry an extra pin if afraid one might break. Anyone tried delrin
for pin material? Stuff is tough as nails and has great wear characteristics.

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Castleton,NY


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 Post subject: Re: Breaking Rudder Pins
PostPosted: Sat Aug 04, 2012 7:37 pm 
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Joined: Mon Jul 14, 2003 7:11 pm
Posts: 4584
Location: Detroit, MI
pknapp66 wrote:
I make my own al pins by buying rod from the hardware store. They cost just a few bucks and can be changed as soon as they show appreciable wear. Easy and cheap enough to carry an extra pin if afraid one might break. Anyone tried delrin
for pin material? Stuff is tough as nails and has great wear characteristics.

There are literally hundreds of aluminum alloys and heat treatments. Some alloys are specifically for corrosion resistance; heat treating can more than double the strength. I have no idea what's on the shelf at the hardware store. I'm willing to spend more than a couple of bucks to keep several hundred dollars of rudder, castings and tiller arm attached to the boat.

The most common marine aluminum is 6061-T6. It's what all the extrusions are made from on a Hobie. T6 tempering means that it's solution heat treated and artificially aged (in an oven).

I'm not sure what is used for the castings, since 6061 is meant to be wrought (extruded). Probably a 3XX.X series alloy, since it is metallurgically similar to 6061 (alloyed with Mg and Si).

The point being, that you want a pin that's somewhat metallugically similar with the castings and/or the gudgeons or you'll have a battery when it's all put in salt water. Inferior Al alloys (lower on the galvanic scale) will end up being sacrificial anodes. I'd rather not have my rudder pins be "sacrificial" for the reason stated above.

Stainless pins are great (I use them), but if you need to use plastic bushings in the castings, or else they will fuse to the castings from galvanic corrosion.

You can get 3/8" 6061-T6 rod in various specifications (including certified material, hard coat anodized and chrome coating) for $2/ft - $8/ft (chrome) from McMaster-Carr. 3/8" 316 stainless steel rod is $3.50/ft. You can also get 3/8" titanium rod for $38/ft :shock:

Delrin (acetal copolymer) is unsuitable for rudder pins. It has about 1/3 the tensile strength of aluminum and very low impact resistance. Makes great bushings and rudder shims, though.


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 Post subject: Re: Breaking Rudder Pins
PostPosted: Sat Aug 04, 2012 8:13 pm 
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Joined: Mon May 09, 2005 10:25 am
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Location: Jersey Shore
If I were going to make aluminum rudder pins, I'd probably use alloy 7075-T7351. It's about twice as strong as 6061-T6 and still has reasonable corrosion resistance. But really, stainless steel is the preferred material. Alloy 304 or 316 rod. Make them once and they'll last forever.

sm


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 Post subject: Re: Breaking Rudder Pins
PostPosted: Sun Aug 05, 2012 2:12 pm 
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Joined: Mon Aug 02, 2010 5:12 pm
Posts: 38
I asked about delrin as a possible substitute for glass or nylon pins, not aluminum.
We are discussing rudder pins not space shuttle parts. My homemade pins have stood the test of time and if they are weaker then that is even better if the rudders decide not to kick up.

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 Post subject: Re: Breaking Rudder Pins
PostPosted: Tue Aug 07, 2012 6:30 am 
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Joined: Wed Jul 13, 2011 8:18 am
Posts: 79
So I took the advice and got me some stainless pins. I shall sail this weekend and make sure its good to go for camping next week.


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