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 Post subject: Re: Spinnaker Eyecandy!
PostPosted: Sat Aug 04, 2012 12:13 pm 
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Joined: Tue May 18, 2010 2:31 pm
Posts: 2709
Location: Kailua 96734
Great writeup Fusion. Enjoyed that!

I have a question for you both. If tying off the spinnaker lines to the Akas, what is there to prevent an Aka collapse, say when the sail initially loads or the hull experiences waves?

Can Hakas or tramps still be used when all the lines and poles are deployed?


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 Post subject: Re: Spinnaker Eyecandy!
PostPosted: Sat Aug 04, 2012 9:18 pm 
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Joined: Sun Apr 20, 2008 6:18 am
Posts: 1309
Location: Sarasota,Key West FL
NOHUHU:
Great question, Ever since I first got my boat and had an AMA collapse, I always tie a 1/4 " nylon line from the metal padeye on the left AMA, through the front AKA brace, then on through to the right AMA metal padeye. It only takes a couple seconds to clip in but it gives me solstice in knowing my AMA's can not under any circumstances fold in (well backwards anyway), yet the line doesn't put any extra stress on the boat. If you hit a dock or something the nylon sheer bolt will still break, the springy rope just helps hold everything together until you can stop for repairs. It also prevents the AMA's from bouncing around on the bungy cords in the waves (annoying). Actually it's strong enough to allow divers to climb into the boat from the side over the AMA, (why they do that I have no idea, I have a ladder).
With mine I have the spinnaker control lines on the outermost point on the rear AKA, so the lines are well out of the way of everything. I often have my wife on one tramp and her best friend on the other tramp while underway, and the lines don't bother them.
Actually the pulleys on the end of the rear AKA brace are tied on with 1/8 inch light rope, so if there were a huge gust it would just break the rope on the pulley (easily replaced on the water).

The sail control lines shouldn't interfere with anything, If you send me a set of Hakas I would be more than happy to try it out ( LOL) (Haka's are on my wish list)

Fusioneng


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 Post subject: Re: Spinnaker Eyecandy!
PostPosted: Sun Aug 05, 2012 2:24 pm 
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Location: Clearwater, Fl
This is a very interesting thread and has given me a lot to consider. Great info fusioneng. Especially the related stresses and leverage causing the 1/4" bolt to shear under the mast cup.

I am seriously considering a spinnaker for my AI after I finish getting the jib setup working smooth. I'm very close and have fabricated a new aluminum furler and lightweight all aluminum bow support since I'm a bit paranoid about buckling the AI's weak bow. I heard of someone locally who folded the front of their AI while flying a jib a few years back. What I heard was they were going great guns until they hit a sand bar and the boat abruptly stopped and the bow folded where the front hatch is (weak point).

The aluminum bow frame is pretty convenient and will work well in attaching a spinnaker with snuffer similar to the triak design. Just worried about all the lines everywhere. The hakas really do help in organizing the lines though. I'm running the jib and a movable pacific action sail (can move from haka to haka) and there are a lot of lines to tangle. I'm going to take your advice of having a knife ready in my life jacket.

My biggest challenge so far has been the mast topper. I think I finally have it pegged but I'm not sure the longevity of the bearings in it. Fusioneng, do you have any better pictures or suggestions how yours was constructed. Do you ever use a rear stay line on your new TI of just tighten the half open mainsail to counteract the forces? Thanks again for your input. Much much appreciated.

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Jim


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 Post subject: Re: Spinnaker Eyecandy!
PostPosted: Sun Aug 05, 2012 5:38 pm 
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Location: Sarasota,Key West FL
Jim:
I also have an aluminum frame on my bow sprit which bolts to the front AKA brace. The only reason I have a bow sprit sticking out 15 inches in front of the bow is so I can get free air to the spinnaker, you might notice the mast on the TI is mounted very far forward, I think the AI is similar.

The mast topper is incredibly simple and requires no modification to the TI in any way. Looking at the first pic, this is a 1 1/2 x 1 ft brass drain pipe I bought at Home Depot, ( I think it's for utility sinks). I bought a 5/16 x 3 inch long stainless bolt and drilled through the center of the pipe, then installed a nut and lock nut on the bolt, then wrapped it with electrical tape. I then loosened the downhaul line at the bottom of the mast and wiggled the little web of fabric at the top of the sail out of it's notch. I slid the pipe over the end of the mast and slid the web over the bolt on one side. Optionally you can wrap electical tape over the mast to get the fit between the mast and the pipe a little better. You then tighted the downhaul line back up, and your done (nothing else to do). The bolt fits nicely into the notch at the top of the sail so the topper rotates with the sail.

The second picture is the mast topper. I took a 1 inch galvanized pipe 4 inches long and connected to a standard 1 inch T connector. I then double reduced (ie.. 1 inch to 3/4, then 3/4 to 1/2 standard pipe thread). I then slid a 1/2 inch dia rod about 3 ft long and mounted 1 ft from one end of the rod. I used mild steel rod and (it's not quite strong enough, it also rusts easily), If I ever do it again I will use stainless rod. With stainless rod you shouldn't need the guy cable brace over the top of the unit. I tapped both ends of the 1/2 inch rod and put in eye bolts. I then took some 3/8 threaded rod about 8 inches long and slid it into the 4 inch long 1 inch pipe. I filled some of the space around the 3/8 rod with PVC pipe (several diameters inside each other) to keep the threaded rod on center. I then put everything in my vice upside down with the threaded rod removed. I then filled the whole inside of the T connector inside with West Epoxy (any epoxy will work), then shoved the threaded rod back into the hole all the way to the bottom. I filed a couple notches into the 1/2 inch rod (under the epoxy) so it can't work loose. After everything set up I took a piece of 3/8 PP hose and slid it over the threaded rod (siliconed it onto the threaded rod). Now you slip the new mast topper into the top of the mast, then with a hack saw adjust the length of the 3/8 rod so the end of the rod is the contact point to the side of the 5/16 bolt inside the brass drain pipe, and there is a small gap between the end of the brass pipe and the flange of the T connector (much less friction when firling if you have a single point of contact in the center, the PP tubing prevents the threaded rod from cutting into the notch at the top of the mast), Actually if I ever need to do it again I will use just standard 3/8 aluminum rod (not threaded). The ring nearest to the T connector is where I clip the jib sail on. The other one midway out is no longer used. The spinnaker clips onto the end eye bolt (on the short end). The rear stay line clips to the long end of the mast topper, then back to the rear lifting padeye. The whole works took me about 2-3 hours to make, no special tools (just a hack saw and drill), everything was right off the shelf at Home Depot. The whole works can be put on or removed either in the water or on land (for low bridges). I'm sure something else could be machined up that looks way more nautical (expensive) using the same basic design concept.

The rear stay line is a simple 1/4 inch nylon rope (stretchy) that keeps the mast from pulling forward too hard, It's stretchy rope so everything is forgiving. The mast topper and stay line do not interfere with the natural flex and bending of the mast.

It's actually kind of funny, all the parts you see in the pictures I made in spring/summer 2010, and wrote about in great detail on how to construct this stuff in the posting Ultimate Tandem Island ( viewtopic.php?f=69&t=33720 ).
I have way over 2000 miles on all this stuff now in all kinds of conditions (35mph winds, 4 ft waves, etc) and have had no issues at all, except the sails starting to look ratty and in need of replacement, time to break out the old sewing machine again.
Image

Image

Image

Chances are that that AI bow would have folded with or without the jib, when he hit the sand bar.
Bob


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 Post subject: Re: Spinnaker Eyecandy!
PostPosted: Sun Aug 05, 2012 6:40 pm 
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Joined: Wed Jan 25, 2012 5:30 am
Posts: 270
Location: Clearwater, Fl
I can't thank you enough for the detail explanation of your mast topper Bob. It's a totally different approach than what I took and I like your approach a lot better than mine. Yours is simpler and looks much more durable. Even though my bearings have been holding up fairly well, salt water is like acid and it's just a matter of time before something exciting happened.

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Jim


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 Post subject: Re: Spinnaker Eyecandy!
PostPosted: Mon Aug 06, 2012 12:50 am 
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Joined: Fri Dec 05, 2008 2:32 am
Posts: 1785
Location: Calga NSW, Australia
CaptnChaos wrote:
I'm running the jib and a movable pacific action sail (can move from haka to haka)

What the hey, Jim, why not just put one on each Haka? 8)
It's only money :roll: .

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Image


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 Post subject: Re: Spinnaker Eyecandy!
PostPosted: Mon Aug 06, 2012 3:19 am 
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Posts: 270
Location: Clearwater, Fl
chrisj wrote:
What the hey, Jim, why not just put one on each Haka? 8) It's only money :roll: .
Yep, and more weight, more lines, more tangles, more clutter on the hakas as well as the money.

Bottom line ... more Chaos :lol:

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Jim


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 Post subject: Re: Spinnaker Eyecandy!
PostPosted: Mon Aug 06, 2012 1:22 pm 
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Joined: Tue May 18, 2010 2:31 pm
Posts: 2709
Location: Kailua 96734
Keep it up Bob! You will surely be promoted to "Admiral Chaos". :lol:


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 Post subject: Re: Spinnaker Eyecandy!
PostPosted: Thu Aug 09, 2012 8:58 pm 
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Joined: Fri Aug 03, 2012 6:53 pm
Posts: 6
Great stuff guys. The spinnaker is a logical idea since the amas/akas can do the job of the pole. Also, since the light air down wind seems the least performing conditions for the TI. I think that will be my next experiment as well.

My current (and 1st) experiment is with a genoa (~110%, just guessing, 12'x6') is looking fairly succesfull. I ran the prototype tarpolin sail last Friday, finished the 4onze/yrd real sail last night, and tested it this evening. There are a few tweaks and improvements I can do, but I've been able to raise and lower it mostly from the rear seat (with the rigging set and the sail flaked in the front, with the main furled) and it definately does what I intended and improve the light wind sailing. Both to allow tension/height adjustment and to facilitate raising/lowering, the sail has a halyard and an opposing downward tension line at the tack and these lines are secured at traditional cleats at the rear akas. The sheets work very traditionally and are held by clam cleats attached to the rear handles. I luffing becomes very noticable when too close hauled, and this induced a pitch mode in the genoa, that more downforce from the sheets seems to help. I'm attaching to the head to the fabric loop atm, but will probable lash an attachment to the masthead for more vertical placement flexibility, as well as being stronger. Although it looked a bit puckered at first, I'm glad I put camber in the sail, because without the standing rigging, the sail bends quite a lot vertically but not longitudinally so the air pressure doesn't really add much camber, just curvature.

Image

more pics here: http://www.flickr.com/photos/9803211@N02/


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 Post subject: Re: Spinnaker Eyecandy!
PostPosted: Sun Aug 12, 2012 8:06 pm 
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Joined: Wed Oct 19, 2011 6:02 am
Posts: 325
Location: Cape Coral, FL
I've rigged a backstay and finally made it out onto the water. only had about ten minutes of spinnaker time before i had to pack up and get to my job.

the sail was splendid, if very brief. in very marginal winds, i topped out at 8 mph. i would hazard max wind speeds at 10 or 11. i didn't get the chance to adjust the sail for reaching but it seemed to work when on the trailer.

cheers,

j

_________________
2011 Golden Papaya TI with a 250 square foot spinnaker!
also a more manageable 100 square foot spinny...
&
the TI3 rear ama mod


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 Post subject: Re: Spinnaker Eyecandy!
PostPosted: Mon Aug 13, 2012 2:57 pm 
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Joined: Wed Jan 25, 2012 5:30 am
Posts: 270
Location: Clearwater, Fl
Good move on doing baby steps in the beginning. And glad the test went well. How did the visibility issues work out?

On a side note, that Tamanu kayak you're getting from Chief (watertribe) looks like a great deal and should be interesting to sail when you finish it.

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Jim


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 Post subject: Re: Spinnaker Eyecandy!
PostPosted: Wed Aug 22, 2012 5:53 am 
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Joined: Wed Oct 19, 2011 6:02 am
Posts: 325
Location: Cape Coral, FL
the video is a bit foggy, shame. almost ruins the video.
i adjusted the contrast and it helped somewhat...

http://youtu.be/qGjz0Y_eH54

blowing around 10 to 15 mph and we topped out at 9
still some kinks to be worked out, but is definitely effective downwind

cheers,

j

_________________
2011 Golden Papaya TI with a 250 square foot spinnaker!
also a more manageable 100 square foot spinny...
&
the TI3 rear ama mod


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 Post subject: Re: Spinnaker Eyecandy!
PostPosted: Wed Aug 22, 2012 6:12 am 
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Joined: Wed Oct 19, 2011 6:02 am
Posts: 325
Location: Cape Coral, FL
CaptnChaos wrote:
Good move on doing baby steps in the beginning. And glad the test went well. How did the visibility issues work out?

visibility wasn't a problem, the kite flew up and out of the way. line management and steering were tough, the boat rounded to very readily and the lines tangled easily. constant tension should reduce the tangles and attentive steering should help.
CaptnChaos wrote:
On a side note, that Tamanu kayak you're getting from Chief (watertribe) looks like a great deal and should be interesting to sail when you finish it.

definitely, i think it should make a very capable expedition sailboat. did you know that the hobie mast is a windsurfer mast? i am ordering a furling drum and base socket for the new mast. seems like they could easily be interchangeable.

cheers,

j

_________________
2011 Golden Papaya TI with a 250 square foot spinnaker!
also a more manageable 100 square foot spinny...
&
the TI3 rear ama mod


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