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PostPosted: Mon Aug 06, 2012 7:51 pm 
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Joined: Fri Sep 23, 2011 8:37 am
Posts: 107
Hi,

I purchased a Papaya TI in February and have been sailing since. So, needless to say my opinions are that of a beginner. My first big excursion involved a 25.11 mile sale from Leland Michigan to North Manitou Island in Lake Michigan.

I purchased the TI almost exclusively because of this forum. The comments were so overwhelmingly positive that I felt certain that I would LOVE the boat. I had never sailed before.

First of all, I do LOVE the boat. However the fact that the boat is so amazing makes the few things that seem problematic that more annoying. I fully realize that these issues have been raised before, but here goes.

1. I purchased the tramps which have been invaluable. However, they DO NOT stay taught. They will routinely sag. They sag to the point where anyone riding on a tramp will be dragging A$$ in the water. This is a design flaw. Apparently Yakass has developed a tensioning solution. Hobie is an Amazing design company. The Mirage drives and the TI are incredible examples of excellent design. This makes the problems with the tramps all the more annoying.

So, has anyone implemented "the Yakass Tramp Sag Solution?" and does it actually work? Are there any problems with implementing this solution? Will this compromise the integrity of any of the factory components.

2. The Bow submarines at high speed to a degree that seems like a design flaw. I acknowledge that I'm not a nautical engineer, but even as a noice, this immediately strikes me as something that just is not quite right.

3. The boat strikes me as an amazingly well designed boat. It's versatility and modulariTy is incredible. But I have to say that the fact that it is rotomolded Polyethelene (? Errrrr "plastic") seems also to be an area that strikes me as odd. Maybe it's because my only other experience is with a glass Searay. But, the plastic strikes me as awfully big and "soft." I can't help wonder what a boat like this would be like if it was made out of Carbon Fiber or Fiberglass. Maybe this comment betrays my nievete. I assume Carbon Fiber would increase the boat cost 5 fold. And would fiberglass increase both cost and weight. But this boat with tramps hat don't sag, a bow that stays above the surface, and light but rigid would be mind blowing.


Also if you feel like flaming me I will totally understand. I'm aware that the less you know about a subject, the more dangerously ignorant your questions can be. I clearly know very little about sailing, but these things just immediately struck me about the boat. Its more of a common sense thing.


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PostPosted: Mon Aug 06, 2012 10:32 pm 
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Joined: Wed Oct 19, 2011 6:02 am
Posts: 324
Location: Cape Coral, FL
1. haven't tried the solution you mentioned, mine sag. i sit on the hakas if i want to stay dry or lay out on the tramps and get a little wet

2. the hulls of the AI and the TI are wave piercing hulls. they have minimal rocker, and are designed to drive though waves rather than over them. old school naval design was that a wide flaring bow would keep the boat dry, but it's not true. the flare creates lots of spray and also forces the boat to go up and over waves instead of though them. up and over is both farther (ie., more distance traveled) and slower because the boat must convert forward thrust into vertical motion. lots of wasted energy.
however, i agree that there should be a little more floatation forward, perhaps just a slightly longer or taller bow.
i believe that the majority of the spray comes from water hitting the aka knuckles and the akas, get some spray skirts.

3. fiberglass and carbon fiber would both be lighter - depending, of course, on layup and build. this is something i would very much want to see. i may eventually build a boat out of glass, epoxy, and oakum plywood.

cheers,

j

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2011 Golden Papaya TI with a 250 square foot spinnaker!
also a more manageable 100 square foot spinny...
&
the TI3 rear ama mod


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PostPosted: Tue Aug 07, 2012 12:20 am 
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Joined: Sat Nov 05, 2011 1:58 am
Posts: 1487
Location: Forster, NSW, Australia
As Kayakman said, most spray comes from the bow wave smashing into the knuckles. I fitted kayakingbob's spray skirts and cut down the wetness of the ride by about 90%.

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Tony Stott
2012 Tandem Island "SIC EM"
www.scenefromabove.com.au


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PostPosted: Tue Aug 07, 2012 4:31 am 
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Joined: Tue Jul 19, 2005 6:29 pm
Posts: 2036
Location: High Point, NC
1. No idea. Do wish the tramps were made from a more open mesh material.

2. I can keep my AI flatter and going faster busting through waves and swells rather than going up and down over them.

3. The only way to have what most consider an affordable price is to build the AI out of rotomolded plastic. This is the construction and material that has fueled the surge in kayaks and small craft over the last 10 years precisely because it made these craft affordable to the masses.


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PostPosted: Tue Aug 07, 2012 9:14 pm 
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Joined: Tue Oct 18, 2011 3:33 pm
Posts: 162
Location: Adelaide, South Australia
We tried the supplied tramp and had the dog's feet in a few inches of water.
I bought some 2" plastic pressure pipe and slightly smaller dowelling with elbows. Also bought some material used on the bouncing type trampolene as below.
Image

Glued and painted the piping black, fitting velcro straps on each corner.
Had the material professionally sewn with loops, wrapped the material around the piping and threaded prestretched cord between (underneath).

The 1" straps with velcro sewn on are held on with aluminium plates screwed through the plastic and into the timber. They just wrap around the Akas.

The dog is now very ralaxed and dry.

Image

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Cheers, Brian in South Australia
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PostPosted: Tue Aug 07, 2012 10:45 pm 
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Joined: Sat Nov 05, 2011 1:58 am
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Location: Forster, NSW, Australia
Great work, but enquiring minds want to know if you have trained him to automatically pop over to the windward tramp during tacks! :lol: :lol:

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Tony Stott
2012 Tandem Island "SIC EM"
www.scenefromabove.com.au


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PostPosted: Wed Aug 08, 2012 4:36 am 
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Joined: Fri Sep 23, 2011 8:37 am
Posts: 107
Hi changeman. Great ideas. Any chance you could post a few more photos of your construction. The description is great but leaves me a bit in the dark regarding the actual construction. "a picture is worth a thousand words"


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PostPosted: Wed Aug 08, 2012 8:24 am 
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Joined: Mon Jul 23, 2012 8:56 am
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As long as the person/dog in on the high side I haven't had any problems with getting wet... well, butt hanging in the water... you still get wet.


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PostPosted: Wed Aug 08, 2012 9:27 pm 
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Joined: Tue Oct 18, 2011 3:33 pm
Posts: 162
Location: Adelaide, South Australia
The dog doesn't want to forego her beauty sleep during tacks so I only made one tramp. Because it is atop the akas, she still stays out of the water on the lee side. It also doesn't load up the amas when tightening the tramp.

I will take some detail photos and post.

Cheers from Downunder.
PS Can Ausies sail or what. Fancy having gold before you go out in a 49er.
We may not catch China but USA watch out :P

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Cheers, Brian in South Australia
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PostPosted: Wed Aug 08, 2012 10:51 pm 
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Joined: Wed Feb 02, 2011 11:26 pm
Posts: 55
totally agree with LeelanauX - the TI is a great superfun boat and the tramps make it an even more fun boat. (I use the tramps to carry the kids, carry load, it's my favourite place on the boat to sit and fight a fish, I love to lay on the tramps while sailing and I use them to go up and down the boat when spearfishing..).

The problem is : the quality of the buckles suck. Big time. They are of bad quality and no matter how tight you put them on, after a while they loose the tension and you get a wet butt. Besides, the design is totally wrong...if a buckle breaks it involves major sewing work just to replace them!

I weigh 80 kilos, so way within the weightlimit for the tramps and two buckles just snapped on my first outing.

Out of the 10 buckles of my two tramps after one year of use 5 broke in the meantime and nowadays I just use a strap and use a knot to attach the tramps on the akas. This does work well and improves the "sagging" significantly but it adds another 10 minutes or so to prepare the boat for launch.

Yosh from modernkayakfishing is using some Thule straps with metal buckles to overcome the sagging issue, I just ordered a few of them and will try them the next weekends.

Really hope that Hobbie will improve the quality of such an essential (and overpriced) accessory like the tramps in the future.

Peace
Serbi


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PostPosted: Thu Aug 09, 2012 1:55 am 
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Joined: Sat Nov 05, 2011 1:58 am
Posts: 1487
Location: Forster, NSW, Australia
Where in Oz are you Changeman?

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Tony Stott
2012 Tandem Island "SIC EM"
www.scenefromabove.com.au


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 Post subject: Tramp buckle replacement
PostPosted: Thu Aug 09, 2012 2:22 pm 
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Joined: Fri Sep 19, 2008 4:07 pm
Posts: 400
Location: CLEARWATER, MN
You might wish to use 'search' for statements about replacing broken buckles from last year. I broke buckles and didn't like the fact that they were plastic.
Maybe a Safety feature...break buckles before breaking the tramp or akas.
I replace the buckles with identically sized marine metal buckles. The buckles that broke were those closest to inboard. More weight and stree there. I haven't broken any of the ama-side plastic buckles.
I followed other members' suggestions and ran several heavy duty nylon straps under the tramps in an X-pattern to help keep the center of the tramps from sagging. I thought about replacing the mesh tramps with teak strips as others have done...by my crew vetoed the idea. They would rather have a wet butt in high waves but a soft resting tramp when relaxing. They didn't want to have to lay on a hard surface on a long reach.


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PostPosted: Thu Aug 23, 2012 4:32 am 
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Joined: Tue Oct 18, 2011 3:33 pm
Posts: 162
Location: Adelaide, South Australia
Hi LeelanauX.
Detail photos of my tramp as promised.

Corner example -

Image
The grey is marine carpet I wrapped around the pipe and glued with contact adhesive. This is where it sits on the Aka and protects the Aka paint.
The blue is 1" webbing with a stainless fitting on the end. I wrap the webbing around the aka and pass it through the fitting. I have velcro stitched on the webbing which is enough to hold the tramp on the aka. The silver bit on top is some aluminium screwed into the wood inside the pipe. This makes it easier to tighten the strap. The silver above that is a galv loop I had stitched to the top of the tramp. I had 6 of them fitted so I could tie tents etc onto the tramp.

Underneath of tramp -

Image
This is the underside with the galv triangles attached to the material with the webbing. The purple cord is pre-stretched. Although these cords are done up tight, there is about 3" of sag with the medium dog. This makes it easier for her to not slide off.

The best part of this is that it actually strengthens the akas rather than putting additional strain on them.
I transport my TI on top of the car and this sits nicely on the rear of the boat with the front just tucked under the akas in the folded position. Yes, I don't disconnect the akas or amas, just fold them in and slide the TI on the rack but that's another series of photos to be done.

Hope this gives you the info you were after.
Cheers,
Brian

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PostPosted: Thu Aug 23, 2012 4:42 am 
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Joined: Tue Oct 18, 2011 3:33 pm
Posts: 162
Location: Adelaide, South Australia
Hi Tony.
In answer to your question, I'm in Adelaide (South Australia for all Americans who should visit), about 20 hours from Forster.
I responded to your article on the Aus site and intend to get over that way one day. Will certainly look you up when we do.
We have a few less active island owners in Adelaide although we do have one who wants to cross the St Vincent Gulf. Gets hairy when you are a long time with no view of land in such a small craft. Have done it a few times in my trailer sailer so I said I would join him in his TI early next year.
Cheers,
Brian

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Cheers, Brian in South Australia
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PostPosted: Thu Aug 23, 2012 6:07 am 
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Joined: Sat Nov 05, 2011 1:58 am
Posts: 1487
Location: Forster, NSW, Australia
Hi Brian, you might see my old yacht over there... Apple Slice, a lime green Holland 25. I co-founded JOGSA, and raced offshore with the squadron, and even did the Adelaide-Port Lincoln race in it. Great place to sail!

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Tony Stott
2012 Tandem Island "SIC EM"
www.scenefromabove.com.au


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