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PostPosted: Fri Aug 31, 2012 11:36 am 
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Location: Sollentuna, Sweden, Europe
Due to a very late delivery of my Adventure Island there was not enough time to test it out properly. A 9-day trip was fixed in my calender and not possible to postpone.
I had only tried out the new AI about an hour with very light wind. But since I have an Adventure kayak before I was familiar with the concept. I admit that it was stupid to just go for the trip anyway but the summer in Sweden is short so I made a try.

After 3 days I have to abort and give up. To much water in the hull every day.

I have developed a total new view on what is water proof packed. The center hull worked as a washing machine in rinse cycle. Not much is really 100% water proof under these circumstances.

I estimated a leakage over 5 hours to at least 40 liters (about 10 gallons). I have tested that it takes about 25 strokes to empty a 10 liter bucket with my pump and on one occasion I counted to about 60-70 strokes to pump out from middle hatch, gives that I managed to get out about 25 liter. There was more water slushing around and some of it had already entered my packing. So perhaps 15 more liters that I could not get out. Thus about 40 liters.

The center/middle hatch was under water.
This modified Sea to Summit bag was really necessary and it worked fine. Image


It was not to hard to determine that it was the front hatch that was leaking.Image You can see a free space of at least 4mm between the sealing and the hull.
So I painted lipstick (non kiss proof) on both sealings and put the hatch on and strapped it down with the 2 bungees. The sealing on the hull, the inner sealing, did just have contact in the corners of the hatch. The sealing on the hatch, the outside sealing, was in contact in front and aft. But not on the longsides. Result is NO SEALING AT ALL on the longsides of the hatch. Of course I took in loads of water. When I took away the sealing I discovered that the fit between hull and hatch was poor. The idea with 2 sealings is excellent but more complicated to get both to seal at the same time. It demands a very accurate cut in both hull and hatch.


Image
As shown here, the hatch is completely straight from fore to aft.


Image
But it is not cut out straight! Here is why the inner sealing leaks at the longsides.


Image
This is my old 2010 Adventure and even if it is a little harder to see when the sealing is mounted, you can see that it is more straight.

The outer sealing has the same problem but reversed.
The hatch is cut straight on longsides but the hull is not straight. Thus is the outer sealing monted on the hatch not in contact with the hull surface on the longsides.

Phooo! Really exausting to describe this in english, hope you understand what I am trying to express.

Anyone else experienced this?
Please give me some feedback.

br
thomas


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PostPosted: Fri Aug 31, 2012 3:16 pm 
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Location: South Florida
Thomas, that is too much leakage. As you have shown, you have a very poor hatch cover fit. My wife and I each have an AI and the front hatch covers seal very well--very little to no leakage. You should put in a warrenty claim to the Hobie dealer.

Apparently others have had leaking front hatches such as yours. On the other hand, like our boats many front hatches seal properly.

You should search Dogslife posts. He has made many upgrades to his AI, including installing a bulkhead to close off the bow section. He has also improved the seal on the front hatch cover such that it is airtight--yes, airtight!

Keith

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PostPosted: Fri Aug 31, 2012 4:05 pm 
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That looks way beyond fixing by the end-user, and I daresay that another hull is th only real answer. Sorry your trip got washed out (literally)

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2012 Tandem Island "SIC EM"
www.scenefromabove.com.au


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PostPosted: Fri Aug 31, 2012 4:20 pm 
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Location: Terrigal NSW, Australia
With its great design and its fantastic customer support, why oh why can't Hobie get its quality control together?
Surely one dude at the end of the production line, checking for known issues with hatches, rudder, mouldings, etc would pay for his salary in saved warranty claims, not to mention customer dissatisfaction and damage to Hobie's image.

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PostPosted: Fri Aug 31, 2012 5:03 pm 
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Joined: Sat Jan 14, 2012 8:24 pm
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Location: Houston, TX
Warranty time for sure. 10 gallons is the most I have ever heard of in 5 hours. Hopefully Hobie steps up and helps you quickly. I vote for another hull.


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PostPosted: Mon Sep 03, 2012 7:06 am 
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Location: Sollentuna, Sweden, Europe
Thanks for the quick feedback.


@Chekika: Yes, the leakage is far too much. It practically brings down the use of the AI next to none. Of course I had a lot of package but nowhere near the maximum of what an AI can take. Lots of wind and waves but as I have seen, reading this forum for a long time, not exceeding what you other AI owners sail in. Regarding Dogslife, how much effort is really expected from the end user to do by himself? Just to make the product work like intended?

@Tonystott: The critical point is that the hull is wrong cut out. Not sure if that is possible to correct.

@chrisj: You are so right! This is a quality issue. Maybe the dude at the end of the line could save his own salary. But only if every cost for warranty claims, regarding production problems, have to be paid by Production dep. But I suspect these kind of costs are spread out in the "chain of supply". There is another point of view. For me, it is obvious that the person, that has done this job, did not understand what he/she was doing. Did not understand how important a close fit was to the function of proper sealed front hatch.

@vetgam: Sadly to say, I am not sure this would be considered as warranty case. A claim was filed and rejected by Hobie US with the motiv that "hatches DO leak". Maybe they did not understand how much…

It would be useful with some feedback from Jacques Bernier and/or Matt Miller...
They are the experts.

best regards
thomas


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PostPosted: Mon Sep 03, 2012 1:39 pm 
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Location: Forster, NSW, Australia
Thomas, with that amount of obvious misalignment, it would be absolutely outrageous if Hobie rejected a warranty claim for that, and I don't for a single moment believe they would do anything other than instantly look after you.

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2012 Tandem Island "SIC EM"
www.scenefromabove.com.au


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PostPosted: Tue Sep 04, 2012 4:10 am 
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I'd imagine you are discussing this first with your dealer and they with Hobie Kayaks Europe... I doublt Hobie USA has been involved.

The hatch seal material snaps onto a lip, so it is important to discover if the cut is straight or the material is not installed straight. It is also possible that the hull was crushed in a way to push the long dimension out of alignment. These are cut witha jig. The chances it is cut differently from another boat is slim.

Work with your dealer.... 10 gallons is too much, but over loading the hull with gear is also a possible contributor. The boat is not designed to be a submarine. :)

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PostPosted: Tue Sep 04, 2012 5:12 am 
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Location: Sollentuna, Sweden, Europe
mmiller wrote:
I'd imagine you are discussing this first with your dealer and they with Hobie Kayaks Europe... I doublt Hobie USA has been involved.
Yes I do. The message that the claim was rejected by Hobie USA and why, came from the swedish dealer. I have no contact with Hobie USA or Hobie Europe.

mmiller wrote:
The hatch seal material snaps onto a lip, so it is important to discover if the cut is straight or the material is not installed straight.
This you have to clearify. A lip? From my photos you can see that the cut in hull is NOT straight. But the inside of the hatch cower is straight from fore to aft on the longsides. The hatch cower is cut too straight at the longsides. The hull is NOT straight at longsides. The result is that no sealing material is in contact with another surface at the longsides. Not the inner sealing, nor the outer one.
When you speak of "the material" I suppose you mean the sealing. That can only be intalled in one way, you press it on to the bottom of the "U"-profile in sealing. If the bottom is in the wrong place due to wrong cut in the hull and hatch cower, the hatch cower will leak. Or have I missunderstood completely?

mmiller wrote:
It is also possible that the hull was crushed in a way to push the long dimension out of alignment.
Sorry, I don't follow you, when is this "crush" supposed to have happened? And what do you mean by "long dimension out of alignment"?
My english is a bit limited. Can you show with a picture?

mmiller wrote:
These are cut witha jig. The chances it is cut differently from another boat is slim.
Well I can't argue on that. But I have read in this forum that most hatches don't leak but others do. Either should all leak or none.

mmiller wrote:
Work with your dealer.... 10 gallons is too much, but over loading the hull with gear is also a possible contributor. The boat is not designed to be a submarine. :)
I do work with my dealer and I agree that 10 gallons is too much. Since the last message I got was that this was my problem, not Hobies, I search for info and advice how to fix the problem. I have been quite clear that I did not exceed load limits and that the weather conditions were about what other users sailed in, certainly not worse. I understand that the boat is not designed to be a submarine and I newer meant to buy one either. In fact that is what I am complaining about.

br
thomas


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PostPosted: Wed Sep 05, 2012 3:24 am 
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Location: Sollentuna, Sweden, Europe
The warranty claim.
The front hatch is leaking more than I can accept and my perception is that I have just used the boat as intended. Therefore I took contact with my dealer. My dealer filed a warranty claim. Later I got the message that Hobie USA has rejected the claim with the motiv that "hatches do leak". My dealer thinks that maybe all info about how big the leak is, have not been fully understood. So my dealer is trying to re-open the case. That's all I know about the warranty claim for now.
IF the warranty case is re-opened and IF the case is NOT rejected, THEN I have some demands. I don't demand a new hull or a new hatch cower. I demand a solution for a leaking front hatch. I demand it for free (no costs). I can do reasonable efforts and spend reasonable time to fix the leak myself. But that should be limited efforts and time and the job should be within my competence to do. The result should not compromise with warranty and should not affect a second-hand value.

Why is the hatch cower leaking?
At first I didn't know where the leak was and have done some researching to find the leak. Maybe this was wrong. Maybe I should just have returned the boat to the dealer and leave the problem back to Hobie. But season is short in Sweden and I wanted to speed things up a bit so I looked for the leak myself. My conclusion is that the front hatch is leaking. I have also came to the conclusion that it's leaking due to a missfit between hull and hatch cower. Maybe this is wrong, I'm no expert. I really can't do anything to fix the leak if I don't know why the boat is leaking. Therefore I post this on the forum to find some useful info. I know the forum members sits on a LOT of knowledge and experience and that Matt Miller & Jacques Bernier, on top of their own competence, have access to production areas and production skilled personal.

The correct solution.
If it's not possible to determine why that hatch is leaking, it will be a trial and error operation. At the time when I have to do something with the hull, I will pass point of no return. Hopefully not in an trial and error operation. So it will help a lot if there is a correct solution.

Why this fault has occured.
Well, If something has gone wrong in production, there must be some interest to find out what and correct the issue. If it has anything with transportation or package to do, it must be the same. If it's a user error/problem then I think it has a common interest on this forum.

As a last comment, I still think it's possible to design and manufacture hatches that don't leak at all.

best regards
thomas


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PostPosted: Wed Sep 05, 2012 9:58 am 
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Ten gallons of water in the kayak in five hours is a lot of water. I would have to assume you are in some seriously rough water to have your bow under water that much, or there's another leak in the hull somewhere. Have you done a leak test to look for other possible sources of water? Either air pressure inside and soapy water, or put water in the hull and see if any comes out.

The hatch was not trimmed properly, but still could be. If you remove a little plastic from the front and rear, wouldn't the middle drop down and make contact? I don't see the need to throw this hull in the trash for this and I think it can be made to work well. No Advendure Island will be 100% water tight if waves are washing over the kayak. Hatches, screw holes, ruder lines, and condensation can all lead to some water in the hull.

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PostPosted: Thu Sep 06, 2012 12:17 am 
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Thanks for your valuable inputs!

Bcastile wrote:
Ten gallons of water in the kayak in five hours is a lot of water. I would have to assume you are in some seriously rough water to have your bow under water that much, or there's another leak in the hull somewhere. Have you done a leak test to look for other possible sources of water? Either air pressure inside and soapy water, or put water in the hull and see if any comes out.
About "seriously rough water" I would say -no, but of course water where washing over the kayak. As I stated before weather was not worse than other AI owners are sailing in. During the 3 days my trip lasted, I was tacking 98% of the time. From close hauled (mostly) to close reach. I have seen vidoes of AI's "submarining" with the bow completely under water during 10 seconds or more. That was not the case anytime. I suppose that occure mostly on broad reach and with when you have the waves from behind. My speed through water and waves was between 7 and 9 kilometers per hour. Since I think that the leak is quite big, it's just a matter of time before splashing waves fill the kayak. 10 gallon took about 5 hours, if I had gone on a broad reach with periods of "submarining", it would have gone much faster to fill the kayak. Yes I have made a simple leak test. By taping over the front hatch completely and sailing out in similar conditions (in my opinion), I could see that I took on a "normal" amount of water, 1-2 liters ( less than 1 gallon). Therefore I have no suspicion that I have any other serious leaks.

Bcastile wrote:
The hatch was not trimmed properly, but still could be. If you remove a little plastic from the front and rear, wouldn't the middle drop down and make contact? I don't see the need to throw this hull in the trash for this and I think it can be made to work well. No Advendure Island will be 100% water tight if waves are washing over the kayak. Hatches, screw holes, ruder lines, and condensation can all lead to some water in the hull.
As I stated in one earlier post I don't belive I need a new hull (yet). There is room for adjustments, like you say, remove a little plastic. But I don't know yet how tricky this operation is. When you remove material from the hull, you also make the hatch opening wider. Reversed with the hatch cower, when you remove material, the hatch cower get narrower. The sealings also come closer each other and you want them both to seal properly.
I have asked my dealer 3 questions. Who's problem is it? Who shall take costs and perform a fix? How shall it be done to not compromise the warranty?
To get some more info and advise I started this thread.

best regards
thomas


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PostPosted: Tue Sep 11, 2012 4:08 am 
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I have ordered new hatch sealings and visited my dealer yesterday to collect them. But Hobie supply chain has only sent 1 sealing and that was meant for an older Adventure (clip on from aside) hull mount. That was of no use to me.

As I stood in the shop I took a carefully look at the other Hobie kayaks and noted that only Adventure (& AI) and probably Tandem Island have 2 sealings mounted in the front hatch. Of course there is a good reason for that. Low hulls that goes right trough waves and when sailing (even in moderate conditions) have a tendency to dive on broad reaches, demands a better solution to proper seal the front hatch.

I will come back with info about the outcome of the warranty claim.

br
thomas


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PostPosted: Tue Sep 11, 2012 4:54 am 
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The other day I had a prolonged downwind sail in my TI, and because I am a fat B and sit up front, the whole bow of the hull up to the mast spent a lot of time (not far short of an hour) submerged by about an inch of "green" water. I was thinking of your situation and decided to partially furl the sail to lessen the amount of water covering the bow.

I was extremely impressed when I got home, and tilted the hull on the trailer till the stern touched the ground, to only see about half a pint of water emerge from the drain.

Your hull clearly is outside spec!

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2012 Tandem Island "SIC EM"
www.scenefromabove.com.au


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PostPosted: Tue Sep 11, 2012 11:56 pm 
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Thanks for the input!

tonystott wrote:
The other day I had a prolonged downwind sail in my TI, and because I am a fat B and sit up front, the whole bow of the hull up to the mast spent a lot of time (not far short of an hour) submerged by about an inch of "green" water. I was thinking of your situation and decided to partially furl the sail to lessen the amount of water covering the bow.
Well this ride would surely have filled up my AI very fast.

tonystott wrote:
I was extremely impressed when I got home, and tilted the hull on the trailer till the stern touched the ground, to only see about half a pint of water emerge from the drain.
Is this something to be impressed by or is it within what to expect from an AI/TI?

tonystott wrote:
Your hull clearly is outside spec!
Interesting statement. There is of course a blueprint with all dimensions. What are the tolerances when building a Hobie kayak? Rotomolded production results in some differs for individual items, and that is accepted. Is there any functional specs for how much a front hatch can leak? As I understand most AI/TI don't leak a lot. Is my AI outside the spec or is it just buyers bad luck when the leakage reaches 10 gallons per 5 hour?
I don't know.
I thought I have found the root cause to why the hatch leaks and that was due to a faulty cut in hull and hatch cower. Matt Millers answer give me some doubts and I didn't fully understood what he meant.

I am still waiting for the outcome of the warranty claim.
Is this my problem or Hobies? A new hatch cower is no big money, no big deal. The critical point for me is when I have to adjust hull cut. That can go wrong.

br
thomas


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