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PostPosted: Sun Sep 09, 2012 5:55 am 
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Hey,

I've owned my TI since May and I LOVE it. Fantastic experience. Having it has really piqued my interest for a more high performance version of this boat. It's clear that a number of the modifications going on are in an attempt to squeeze more speed and performance out of the boat.

Like the TI3 project. Here's the question. Are there any trimaran sailboats that might be more high performance right out of the box. The weta tri seems very interesting, but I can't seem to find any other small trimarans that are higher performance. Is there anything else to look at?

Also, the weta looks great, but for 10 to 12k is it really a more high performance boat?

Thanks!


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PostPosted: Sun Sep 09, 2012 12:35 pm 
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Location: Sarasota,Key West FL
leelanauX:
This is a very interesting topic. Around here (West and south Florida) I have seen many WETA's, they look like a mighty fine sailing machine, well designed and constructed. However I have not seen anyone trying to car top any, I believe they come with a nice custom trailer suited well for launching the boat easily.
I have also seen quite a number of Windrider 17 boats, these are also mighty fine sailing machines, however I think there is no way to car top these either.
Being able to car top my boat is a basic requirement since I live in restricted neighborhoods in both Sarasota and Key West where any type of trailer is simply not an option for me. We also have a camping trailer, and whenever we are traveling with the camper the hitch would not be available. So my choices are car top or no boat for BOB.
There is also the Triak, but that is more on par with the adventure (also a nice boat).
I'm sure there are others but these are the ones I have seen and sailed with and around, and appear to be the front runners in this fairly new trimaran class of small sail boats.
If you look at both the WETA and the Windfinder 17 ( Also look at the RAVE, if you want go fast) you will see they have more standard type (non-furling) sails (like a Hobie 16 would have). They also have jib and screacher options that were designed into the basic design of the boats. The additional sail area available is what makes all the difference in the world. Now I'm not promoting any boat, one brand over another, I'm only speaking from my own personal experience, observations, and pocketbook.
For one The Hobie TI is half the price of any of the other boats described (last time I checked).
If you want a go fast daytime beach boat there is nothing in this class that will hold a candle speedwise to a true Cat (Like a Hobie 16). The hull drag is next to nothing on a cat, and they have huge sail area specifically for going fast (but they can tip over very easily if not careful, or experienced).
Now getting out of the multi hulls, if you want to learn the art of sailing, a laser or sunfish ( I learned on a sunfish) are very nice monohull boats specifically designed for sailing (there really is nothing else you would use a laser or sunfish for besides sailing, I have never seen anyone fishing from one). They are definately much less forgiving than a multihull (easily tipped especially with inexperienced sailers).

Most boats are purpose designed and built, I consider the TI to be a SUV or trusted pick up, you can use it for most anything you like ( I know we do). It may not be the fastest but it by far the most versatile boat out there today.
In my case where the winds are typically too low to sail ( <5mph) I added more sail area specific for my area and needs (it's not rocket science), in contrast the Aussies, and the Island guys (like Hawaii, and Carribbian) think we are nuts for trying to add more sail, they typically have way more wind than could be utilized by even the 90 sq ft standard sail.

This is my opinion of course but I would not trade my boat for a Windrider, Weta, or even a Hobie 16. I consider what I have to be the perfect boat for what I use it for (just about everything including crabbing (tramps stacked 5 high with crab cages), scuba diving, lobster hunting, recreational sailing, Island hopping, running light rapids on rivers in Colorado, and other places (Kayak only mode of course), we also use our TI to run up and down the Santa Fe river or Crystal river visiting all the wonderful crystal clear springs in Florida. I personally know of nothing on the market today that even holds a close second to the Tandem Island as far as versatility goes. Heck we have even lashed 4 or 5 kayaks to our TI and use it as a party barge, then go out to sand bars or islands (like Egmont Key, or the mangrove tunnels at Lido Key) with huge coolers, and the tramps stacked with lawn chairs.
I'm perfectly comfortable taking our TI 20-30 miles from launch, usually Island hopping (I always carry at least 50 miles of fuel on board for the emergency motor)). Not sure I would go out to sea more than a couple miles offshore where there is nothing. But we do like to go out to sand key or any of the coral reefs in and around key west or Key Largo (typically 5-7 miles off shore) and go scuba diving.
With my extra sails and rigging stuff , I feel my TI is on par with any Weta or Windrider 17. So you can have your cake and eat it too, at half the price ( lol).


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PostPosted: Sun Sep 09, 2012 3:22 pm 
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"USED TRIFOILER". :twisted:


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PostPosted: Sun Sep 09, 2012 7:43 pm 
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I'm not sure if you are talking about trimarans or sailing kayaks... which, or both?

The Triak is pretty cool, made of fiberglass, weighs 100 pounds, and is quite fast. It's currently US$5,000 (delivered).

Image

The carbon fiber spinnaker snuffer is beyond cool: .... http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=J4wkDtp0Kio

http://www.triaksports.com/

As per some email conversations in July 2012, they are working on a tandem version. The single seater is too small for my needs, but I sure am interested to see what the tandem looks like, and what it will cost......

Thayer Ridgway of Triak said: "My plan is to get 2-3 renderings of design proposals and publish them and let our owners, prospects and the public submit feedback, which ones they like, and +/- and the varying features on the concepts. We're starting with a clean slate and a no-compromises approach to hopefully get something unique that is amazing fun and performance in at a friendly price point. "

I hope he doesn't mind my passing that on.....

Another choice is the Warren Little Wing 15.5, but that carbon fiber boat weighs 68 pounds ready to sail and costs US$9000... for that I would go to the bank and get a loan for a WETA.

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http://www.warrenlightcraft.com/specs15sail.html

Neither one of those kayaks has any sort of dealer network in the USA, but the WETA has a small and growing list of dealers, if that is important to you. There's one 20 miles from me in Hayden, Idaho, surprisingly.

The WETA is indeed a really high performance boat because it has a huge sail area and a planing hull, which makes it get up on top of the water and skitter like a leaf before a wind storm. Check out this pitchpole video:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iG9Ts0vvTu0

If I am being truthful with myself, it's way too hyper for me at age 58..... maybe twenty years ago when all my joints worked properly.

John Davies
Spokane WA USA


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PostPosted: Sun Sep 09, 2012 9:32 pm 
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I don't know how good the Triyak is, but I wouldn't trust their sales pitch. They have a page on their website dedicated to how much better the Triyak is than the AI: http://www.triaksports.com/TRIAK/triak-vs-hobie.html
Apart from it not being a good look, bagging your opposition when they have no right of reply, Triyak's claims are downright misleading:
They state that "The TRIAK is truly car-top friendly" with a hull weight of 64 lb.
On the other hand they state that "The Hobie really must be transported on a trailer." They then go on to add the $2,000 cost of a trailer to the price of the Hobie, to show that the Triyak is actually cheaper ($,4999 base price). Well the AI is entirely car-toppable, as I and many others have been doing for years. There are those who prefer to trailer their AI, but I'm sure that would apply to many Triyak owners also, given that the Triyak hull is only 6 lb lighter than the AI hull.
They state that the Triyak is capable of "double digit speeds". Given that this is an exercise in self-promotion, I think we can assume these speeds are not far north of 10mph, or they would have said so. Again, the AI is entirely capable of doing 10mph or more, in favourable conditions, so I'm guessing their maximum speeds are much the same.
Dry storage: They state that the Triyak has "158 liters. Enough for days of self-sustained camping.", whereas the the Hobie has "Virtually zero. (2) shallow 8" inspection ports." Tell that to the Hobie guys that did so well in the Everglades challenge. Come to think of it, where were all the Triyaks in the EC? I guess they didn't notice the front and rear cargo holds or the front hatch.
On the Mirage drive: "The Mirage Drive is truly remarkable. The drawbacks are the hand steering, weight and beaching ability." I gather they haven't heard you can pull the Mirage drive out when beaching.
Finally, they do point out three genuine weaknesses in the AI: The wet ride, the tendency to submarine and the difficulty tacking without pedalling. I've found that all three of these problems are virtually eliminated since I started using my $30 quarterdeck.
They may or may not make a good boat, but their advertising is distinctly shady IMO.

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PostPosted: Sun Sep 09, 2012 10:10 pm 
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I hope our Hobie WAVE owners are going to step up and be counted here,..

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I don't think you need a faster TRI Lee - I think you need to FLY!


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PostPosted: Mon Sep 10, 2012 4:07 am 
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chrisj wrote:
I don't know how good the Triyak is, but I wouldn't trust their sales pitch. They have a page on their website dedicated to how much better the Triyak is than the AI: http://www.triaksports.com/TRIAK/triak-vs-hobie.html.
Interesting link Chris !
The bashing Triak did to the AI on their website is almost grounds for libel. Their claims are ridiculous. They should be in politics. A friend of mine has a triak and we sail virtually side by side in heavy wind with my standard AI. The only performance advantage is when he deploys his spinnaker. But when the wind dies, my mirage drive sure is a sweet option. That goes for all the other boats mentioned too.

On the watertribe forum someone who ordered and put money down on a triak has been trying for months to contact the company with no response. He's now going to his credit card company to get his deposit back. Not the sort of company I would like doing business with.

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PostPosted: Mon Sep 10, 2012 4:51 am 
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If you want speed, go for a Hobie Cat. The kayaks have a lot going for them but the sailing cats are faster. I have gotten my Hobie 18 over 20mph and over 10mph is easy. It all depends on what you want to do.


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PostPosted: Mon Sep 10, 2012 5:43 am 
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Or if you really want to go fast, get a Moth:


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PostPosted: Mon Sep 10, 2012 6:20 am 
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chrisj wrote:
Or if you really want to go fast, get a Moth:




That looks like fun!!!! :D


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PostPosted: Mon Sep 10, 2012 7:35 am 
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I've seen the Little Wing and it's probably the closest thing to a high performance AI or TI out there. The set up is very similar, with all control being done from the center cockpit. It's a very high quality boat. Lightweight and fast. While tempting, the lack of a Mirage Drive makes it less versatile for the things I like to do with my AI. I'm giving up a little speed and weight savings at an increase in durability and versatility.

However, if I wanted a higher performance AI or TI for strictly sailing chores, I think the Warren Little Wing comes closest to being exactly that.


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PostPosted: Mon Sep 10, 2012 11:21 am 
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To me, the biggest turn-off (based on what I can see from the website) is that to launch it, you would need a long time ashore indeed assembling and dismantling it, as the amas (at least on the tandem version I saw) do not fold, and appear to be bolted directly to the hull. If that is the case the Warren would be pretty impractical unless you could store it intact. Let's not even think about the price which is three times that of a TI....

If I felt that much of a need for speed, I think I would pick up a second-hand Hobie F18 at under $6000 just for those moments, and alternate between an F18 and Ti.
http://catsailor.net/forums/showthread. ... n-For-Sale

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2012 Tandem Island "SIC EM"
www.scenefromabove.com.au


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PostPosted: Mon Sep 10, 2012 12:14 pm 
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leelanauX wrote:
... I've owned my TI since May and I LOVE it. Fantastic experience. Having it has really piqued my interest for a more high performance version of this boat...


I went through a bit of the same thing as you, leelanauX. I looked at what was available, I think the Weta is COOL, but at the end of the day, I narrowed down what I liked about the Adventure Island (I realize that you are talking about the Tandem Island, but obviously they are similar)

What I liked:

--SIMPLICITY!! - One hand to steer, one hand on the sail. Perfect

--Made by Hobie - Some people downplay this, but simply put, no one in the industry takes care of their customers like Hobie.

--Durable, beach-able. - I used the AI for exploration. I stopped at all kinds of beaches, and islands, and other amazing places. The Rotomolded hull material is heavy, but it allows you to sneak up to rocky shorelines, and not worry in the least.

Image

What I didn't like:

-- Lower Speeds, lower performance - I wanted to go faster. I wanted something that really reacted to the wind, and was more playful. I also wanted the ability to tip. So that my skills could improve, and I wasn't simply relying on the design of the boat to keep me upright.


So I bought a Bravo. Admittedly, I was strongly considering a Wave or a Getaway, but the Bravo was found used for a price that I couldn't miss out on. It's GREAT. You can still sail up to just about anywhere because you haven't got a dagger board. You definitely get extra performance. I would still like to move to a Wave because I have a growing family, and the Bravo is a bit tight for extra people, but the point is, the next step up in performance is right there in the Hobie lineup.

A Wave can be solo'd or taken out with others. Its easily as fast as the Weta, but is much simpler to set up and sail. It's WAY cheaper.

You don't have to fly a hull, you can be just as relaxed as you would be on a Weta, but if you do decide to fly a hull, you'll find that it's very controllable, and quite fun.

Maybe it's an interim solution for you, but for the price, it definitely gets you the extra performance. It's as simple to sail as a TI, (one hand on the tiller, one hand on the sail) and it's a Hobie, so you know you've got a quality boat that will be backed up by a great dealer network, and an even better manufacturer.

Plus, you can do this!

Image


Now... in regards to that Triak. WHY!!! Why would the marketing department do something so stupid. It seems like they have a decent product there, why not sell it on it's own merits. It's got features that the Hobie doesn't have, like a lighter hull, a potentially drier seat (although I doubt you'd stay as dry as they imply on anything that close to the water) but why they would go and try to give false information, I have NO idea. It makes you question everything that they claim about their own boat, and for anyone going to a dealer to discuss the AI with the Triak in mind, the dealer is going to blow each of those claims out of the water. Their marketing actually hurts them to anyone who checks out both boats. Dumb dumb dumb!!

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PostPosted: Mon Sep 10, 2012 12:16 pm 
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I should also clarify. We had an Adventure Island for me, and my wife had a Revolution. We used to like to kayak together, but I liked to sail on my own.

We sold the other boats, and we now have an Oasis (tandem mirage kayak) so we can still kayak together, and with my Bravo I can sail on something with higher performance.

There are ALL kinds of solutions for people within the Hobie lineup, you just have to look at what you REALLY want to do!

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PostPosted: Mon Sep 10, 2012 1:23 pm 
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leelanauX:
Here is another point, why own just one boat (do like many others do) and have several different boats.
You can buy a brand new second TI ($5250), a wave ($5199), and a couple trailers for what you can buy the Weta for.
This way if you want adventures take the TI, if your just want to go fast off a beach, just messing around day sailing, take the Wave out.
The wave will for sure out perform any Weta in my opinion.
Even upping to a hobie 16, and TI may cost you less the the Weta (w/trailer).
Keeping tour TI and buying a Hobie Getaway ($9599) is still way cheaper than a Weta (this kind of put things into perspective). I believe the Getaway is also cheaper than the Windrider 17 as well but 4 times faster and holds up to 6 people.
Plus there us a huge market for used Hobie 16's, you can likely pick up a pretty good one for a couple grand (to fulfill you urge for speed once in a while)

I just did a quick google search for any of the prices above, not sure if any are correct.

Lots of choices, all you need is money ( LOL)


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