Hobie Cat Forums

It is currently Tue Sep 16, 2014 8:33 am

All times are UTC - 8 hours [ DST ]




Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 18 posts ]  Go to page 1, 2  Next
Author Message
PostPosted: Thu Sep 13, 2012 9:15 am 
Offline
Site Rank - Captain

Joined: Mon Apr 25, 2011 6:14 pm
Posts: 97
Location: Jupiter, Florida
Yesterday the south Florida Group, (Mark, Ezra and myself) went sailing in Stuart, Florida, in 15-20mph winds. It was a beam reach and the sailing was incredible. Unfortunately, I was recovering from jet lag and forgot my camera and Go Pros to film the event. We traveled up the inter-coastal river for about 12 miles, had lunch and then returned. On the return leg with about 6 miles to go I heard a loud pop and lost all control of steering. With the large load on the sail and it being a beam reach I just assumed that the rudder pin had snapped. I do a lot of fishing 6 plus miles off shore and thought I was prepared for almost anything that could happen to the boat, so I welcomed the opportunity to practice replacing the rudder pin in a somewhat benign environment (benign defined as something less than 600 feet of water without a 4 knot current pushing me away from home). To my surprise and astonishment the pin did not break, but instead one of the rudder Gudgeons bolts sheared off. This is a catastrophic failure if you are trying to control the boat in the above conditions. Fortunately, Mark was able to tow me in. With my sail partially furled and his wide open we were still able to make 6mph on the return home.

I contacted Hobie and Brendan was very helpful in covering the failure under the 2 year hull warrantee. My hull is a first generation and has the smaller bolts that are used to attach the gudgeon. Brendan mentioned that it was possible to replace the bolts with the larger, stronger bolt. I am also having them look at the hull for possible hull damage due to the fact that the area around the sheared bolt is now protruding significantly beyond it’s surrounding area.

Image

Image

Image

_________________
Image

Steve


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Thu Sep 13, 2012 10:29 am 
Offline
Site Rank - Old Salt

Joined: Wed Oct 19, 2011 6:02 am
Posts: 325
Location: Cape Coral, FL
That's a shame, glad it worked out safely.

My rudder bracket has always bulged slightly like that. I have a 2010 boat. Do you have a picture of the bracket before the failure? I can post a photo of mine later if you want to compare them.

j

_________________
2011 Golden Papaya TI with a 250 square foot spinnaker!
also a more manageable 100 square foot spinny...
&
the TI3 rear ama mod


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Thu Sep 13, 2012 1:03 pm 
Offline
Site Rank - Old Salt

Joined: Tue Jul 19, 2005 6:29 pm
Posts: 2067
Location: High Point, NC
I was going to say that the bulge there is probably just as it always was. The mounting nut is molded into the plastic. If the nut itself has not torn out of the hull (doesn't appear to) then all is likely just as it was before.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Thu Sep 13, 2012 1:33 pm 
Offline
Site Rank - Old Salt

Joined: Tue May 18, 2010 2:31 pm
Posts: 2709
Location: Kailua 96734
It's certainly not a good thing. That bottom joint has less stability the way it sits.

Given enough bulge, the screw would take all the lateral and pulling forces. It would toggle and fatigue quickly.

Steve - When both screws are tight, is there a similar gap?


Last edited by NOHUHU on Thu Sep 13, 2012 1:49 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Thu Sep 13, 2012 1:47 pm 
Offline
Site Rank - Old Salt

Joined: Tue Jul 19, 2005 6:29 pm
Posts: 2067
Location: High Point, NC
No not a good thing, but easily fixed. The rudder support can be cut/sanded to match the contour of the stern which would create a flush fit against the hull.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Thu Sep 13, 2012 1:51 pm 
Offline
Site Rank - Old Salt

Joined: Tue May 18, 2010 2:31 pm
Posts: 2709
Location: Kailua 96734
Or G-flexed in place. Or both.

What's really needed here is a third anchor/screw.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Fri Sep 14, 2012 10:29 am 
Offline
Site Rank - Old Salt

Joined: Sun Apr 20, 2008 6:18 am
Posts: 1308
Location: Sarasota,Key West FL
snjsanders:
Chances are the bulge is what caused the failure in the first place. I am assuming the bulge has been there since the boat was new. Think about how a bolt works. You tighten the bolt and it's purpose is to hold the flat surface down (the bolt should only have vertical stress). With the situation you have with the bulge, the bolt bottoms out on the brass insert, but there is nothing stopping lateral or rocking stress (except the body of the bolt). Over time the bolt itself will get flex fatigue and break (this is what happened I believe).
Without fixing the bulge the same will happen again with a new bolt (bolts are not designed to resist that type of fatigue).
Chances are there is nothing that can be done about the bulge, I suspect the bulge could only have occurred in the factory (probably during mold cooling or ejection), and has been present from day one. What finally occured is the bolt fatigued out from the twisting back and forth force of normal use.
The bulge in itself doesn't hurt anything, it's not likely the insert is going to pull out.
The correct way in my opinion to fix this is to fill the space around the bulge with a gasket material or some sort of hardening filler, so the gungeon cannot rock back and forth (basically sitting on a flat surface on the back of the hull if possible). By doing this you will never fatigue out another bolt (the tensile strength on the bolt itself is more than adequate (you can likely easily lift a car with that one bolt, as long as the force is linear (straight up)). As soon as it starts to need flexing back and forth it's just a short amount of time (a few side flexes before it fails). A good comparison would be to take a metal coat hanger and flex it back and forth a few times, it will snap easily after 5 or 10 flexes, yet lifting something straight up with the coat hanger without flexing the metal, it can lift alot of weight.
Hope this helps
Bob


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Fri Sep 14, 2012 10:56 am 
Offline
Site Rank - Captain

Joined: Mon Apr 25, 2011 6:14 pm
Posts: 97
Location: Jupiter, Florida
Thanks for all your comments and suggestions. It would appear that even with a new bolt that the bulge would remain about the same as depicted in the picture. I agree with Bob that the Gudgeon not being flush against the hull may have led to the initial failure and without it being fixed would likely lead to another future failure. With the type of off shore fishing I do, that is not an option. Even my insane mind has limits to the risks it will take. In other words, I may be crazy but I am not stupid! I am sure Hobie will come up with a safe and reasonable solution.

_________________
Image

Steve


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Fri Sep 14, 2012 2:00 pm 
Offline
Site Rank - Old Salt

Joined: Tue Jul 19, 2005 6:29 pm
Posts: 2067
Location: High Point, NC
Judging by the photo, the bulge is only perhaps 1/16th inch out of flat. Maybe a hair more. It might be possible to sand/grind that area flat and restore a flat surface for the base to mount onto. The only caution would be to make sure that the small amount you remove does not overly thin the hull or remove too many threads from the molded in nut. However, I don't think either will be a problem in this instance for the amount we'd be talking about removing.

Of course, you still have the option to reshape the base to conform to the present hull shape. I haven't looked at the rear of the base, but it may be something remedied by simply countersinking the rear of the bolt hole.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Sat Sep 15, 2012 11:33 am 
Offline
Site Rank - Captain

Joined: Mon Jul 24, 2006 4:52 pm
Posts: 120
Location: South Florida (Coral Springs)
Well I hate that happened to you, but it makes me feel better that I'm not the only one. Your at least the second one now. I feel like most things that can go wrong with this boat have happened to me. I reported this on a post back in July 2010. I put a number of photos up to. You can see the post here:
http://www.hobiecat.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=71&t=28304

Hobie, and some others, did not think this was possible from sailing. They were convinced it had to have been previously damaged in transport. I won't get into the details here, but given when and how it happened, I really didn't think that was the case, but it did cause me to second guess myself. It's unfortunate it happened to you, but I'm glad it finally gives my failure some credibility.

BTW, I'm a member of SFTS.
Ben


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Sat Sep 15, 2012 12:37 pm 
Offline
Site Rank - Captain

Joined: Mon Apr 25, 2011 6:14 pm
Posts: 97
Location: Jupiter, Florida
Ben,
Thanks for sharing your experience and past links on the subject. By the way I think the South Florida Group maybe the test dummies for Hobie on the Tandem Island. Our group has had our share of failures on the TI. This may be because most of us have first generation hulls, and combined with living in South Florida, we probably use our boat more and in more extreme conditions than the average user. Look forward to meeting you soon.

_________________
Image

Steve


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Sat Sep 15, 2012 1:05 pm 
Offline
Site Rank - Old Salt

Joined: Tue Jun 19, 2007 6:14 pm
Posts: 1879
Location: South Florida
Is it possible?? This is only a South Florida phenomenon??

Keith

_________________
I sail: Biscayne Bay, Everglades to Cape Romano, Ft Desoto, Cedar Key

"Any intelligent fool can make things bigger and more complex ... It takes a touch of genius and a lot of courage to move in the opposite direction." A. Einstein


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Sat Sep 15, 2012 3:00 pm 
Offline
Site Rank - Old Salt

Joined: Sun Apr 20, 2008 6:18 am
Posts: 1308
Location: Sarasota,Key West FL
I think if it was my boat, I would get a stainless replacement bolt and some clear silicone, I would glob silicone over the back end, put the rudder on and call it good. Once the silicone sets up it forms a conformal gasket that prevents the rudder bracket from moving. That's just what I would do keeping it simple.
Bob


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Sat Sep 15, 2012 5:42 pm 
Offline
Site Rank - Old Salt

Joined: Tue May 18, 2010 2:31 pm
Posts: 2709
Location: Kailua 96734
Good call Bob. The gudgeon on the TI3 is gooped in place


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Sat Sep 15, 2012 6:36 pm 
Offline
Site Rank - Captain

Joined: Fri Apr 16, 2010 7:32 pm
Posts: 86
Location: tampa, fl
well ,
Make that 3 of us in south florida. I know when my original guedgoen bolt got stressed. Same time I lost the whole old style rudder sailing in the everglades with Keith and crew. Hit something hard going very fast. I changed the bolt out but the plastic guedeon was a bit deformed as well. When I got the new style rudder this bolt continually came loose even with locktight on it. If you ask nice at Hobie they will give you or sell you a new guedoen that is much better made for the TI and new rudder system. it fits better and compensates for the bit of bulge at the mounting points. it is not the compromise design they had for the old twist and stow rudder. This also gets a tightness check every pre sail . Has not come loose in a year. Look at a new boat to see the difference.


Top
 Profile  
 
Display posts from previous:  Sort by  
Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 18 posts ]  Go to page 1, 2  Next

All times are UTC - 8 hours [ DST ]


Who is online

Users browsing this forum: GetawayIsland, Yahoo [Bot] and 3 guests


You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum

Search for:
Jump to:  
Powered by phpBB® Forum Software © phpBB Group