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 Post subject: Re: TI FWD XBAR FAILURE
PostPosted: Thu Jul 12, 2012 5:23 pm 
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Location: South Florida (Coral Springs)
Just wanted to note that after bringing my apparently cracked crossbar to the attention of my dealer, it was promptly replaced by Hobie. Thanks to this forum, I avoided a potentially dangerous and rough day. I also appreciate Hobie providing great customer service and a prompt replacement once they saw my problem. Hopefully, other affected owners, not aware of this issue, luck holds out.


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 Post subject: Re: TI FWD XBAR FAILURE
PostPosted: Sun Jul 15, 2012 11:19 am 
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Just bought a used 2010 TI yesterday only to find this thread last evening when researching for tips on setting it up. This morning after inspecting the welds, there is clear evidence of a crack along the top starboard side. Man what a bummer. :roll:
Not sure if I can get a replacement since I don't have a dealer close by. Does anyone know if Hobie ever decided on a recall on this?

By the way, THANKS guys for the info! Would have hated to have my little granddaughters on board and had the mast come crashing down.


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 Post subject: Re: TI FWD XBAR FAILURE
PostPosted: Sun Jul 15, 2012 12:04 pm 
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Joined: Wed Oct 19, 2011 6:02 am
Posts: 322
Location: Cape Coral, FL
I would post a photo here, then call Hobie directly. Their number is listed on the website. I called them once, and while it took a few tries to find someone who knew the answer to my question, I spoke with real live humans, they were super helpful and friendly, and they clearly worked for Hobie, not some phone center in India.

cheers,

J

_________________
2011 Golden Papaya TI with a 250 square foot spinnaker!
also a more manageable 100 square foot spinny...
&
the TI3 rear ama mod


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 Post subject: Re: TI FWD XBAR FAILURE
PostPosted: Mon Jul 16, 2012 9:02 am 
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Joined: Wed May 28, 2003 1:12 pm
Posts: 988
Harleyreefer wrote:
Just bought a used 2010 TI yesterday only to find this thread last evening when researching for tips on setting it up. This morning after inspecting the welds, there is clear evidence of a crack along the top starboard side. Man what a bummer. :roll:
Not sure if I can get a replacement since I don't have a dealer close by. Does anyone know if Hobie ever decided on a recall on this?

By the way, THANKS guys for the info! Would have hated to have my little granddaughters on board and had the mast come crashing down.


If you have an issue with a kayak - just call a dealer (they don't need to be local to help) they will submit a warranty claim and the part will ship to your door. It is a simple process - link: http://www.hobiecat.com/support/dealers/search/

We rather not have everyone calling here to our offices - we rely on our dealers to filter all of these calls for us - but as a last resort you are always welcome to call here - we don't try and hide our contact details. But like another posted mentioned - we don't have a call center in India - nor do we have staff levels to handle retail direct call loads - we are a dealer contact, and everyone is on the phone all day with our dealers - there just isn't enough time in our day to take calls from retail direct. We really want people to work with their dealer - no matter how far or near that might be - at the end of the day, we are surely further away from you geographically than a dealer, so not sure why it is that people think it best to call us first. We also don't sell anything here direct, nor handle warranty claims direct, everything ultimately get's passed through the dealer - so when we do get a call, we always refer the matter to a dealer, so best to just go that route first.

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http://www.hobiecat.com/
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 Post subject: Re: TI FWD XBAR FAILURE
PostPosted: Mon Oct 01, 2012 11:35 am 
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Posts: 10
Wow -- this exactly what just happened to me (October 1, 2012). I purchased my boat on June 18th, 2011 and the boat was manufactured between January 2011 - May 2011. Am I eligible for the redesigned forward AKA and mast bearing plate assembly? I have the exact same pics of my bearing plate sheared off. The winds were gusting up to 30 mph, but nothing that should've caused this...


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 Post subject: Re: TI FWD XBAR FAILURE
PostPosted: Mon Oct 01, 2012 2:43 pm 
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Joined: Wed May 28, 2003 1:12 pm
Posts: 988
Call a dealer if you have an issue with a kayak part - toll free 1800hobie49
Replacement parts would be the same version - there isn't an upgrade - that is something that you can always do if you wanted on your own, but it isn't a factory kit or retro kit - sorry.

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http://www.hobiecat.com/
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 Post subject: Re: TI FWD XBAR FAILURE
PostPosted: Sun Oct 07, 2012 2:03 am 
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Joined: Thu Apr 12, 2012 1:54 am
Posts: 19
Jbernier wrote:
Call a dealer if you have an issue with a kayak part - toll free 1800hobie49
Replacement parts would be the same version - there isn't an upgrade - that is something that you can always do if you wanted on your own, but it isn't a factory kit or retro kit - sorry.


I thought there was a new version of the Xbar with double welds in production now?

mmiller wrote:
Yes, the revised bearing plate through the beam / weld system is in production for the TI. Been a month or so they say.


What about the people who live on the Pacific Islands with highly variable weather. The city I live has a nickname of "The City of Sails" since you can set off with nice and calm 5-10 knot winds and before you know it is up round 25-30 knots with little warning. If the plate breaks in such conditions (above 25 knots) my Tandem Island could quite possibly end up smashed on the rocks due to the rugged coastline from many of the small Islands situated on the Hauraki Gulf.


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 Post subject: Re: TI FWD XBAR FAILURE
PostPosted: Sun Oct 07, 2012 8:19 am 
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Joined: Mon Jul 19, 2010 7:53 am
Posts: 299
Location: Palm City, Florida
Snakebite1969,
I understand your concern exactly. As far as I know, the new style X-Bar was installed be on all the 2012 TI's. If your's does not have it and you're seeing the "grey line - crack", take some pictures and contact your dealer. Hobie (Thank You), has been very good about replacing these.

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Sun E Sailor
Ezra Appel
Palm City, Florida
2014 Tandem Island


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 Post subject: Re: TI FWD XBAR FAILURE
PostPosted: Wed Apr 03, 2013 10:40 pm 
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Joined: Mon Feb 28, 2011 5:58 pm
Posts: 31
Location: Adelaide, South Australia
sun E sailor wrote:
Snakebite1969,
I understand your concern exactly. As far as I know, the new style X-Bar was installed be on all the 2012 TI's. If your's does not have it and you're seeing the "grey line - crack", take some pictures and contact your dealer. Hobie (Thank You), has been very good about replacing these.


I have read this and other threads regarding xbar slippage and weld failure with interest and some alarm. My 2011 TI has developed marked lateralslippage with tacks, and I have checked and adjusted all components to no avail. I have tightened the bolts on the crossbar saddles as far as I am game, checked the pin in the bottom of the mast receiver, checked the bolt and locknut at the base of the v-frame, adjusted the vframe to give the correct clearance for the furler spool, and checked the bolts that go through the xbar into the mast receiver. Still clunking, and moving up to 1/2 an inch on port tack, and 1/4 inch on starboard (limited by the mainsheet jam cleat base, whose shear resistance I am concerned about)

Now I find, as might be predicted, that the weld joining the mast support to the xbar is cracking at the corners on both sides. I have the old single-weld style xbar.

I will seek replacement through my dealer before a complete failure dismasts me, but I can't see the point in replacing the xbar if it is destined to clunk back and forth until it cracks again, or something else fails, like the screws holding the jamcleat.

I did try my own dodgy fix, rivetting some scrap aluminium onto the xbar using the existing holes to make some stops abutting the saddles. This did reduce the amplitude of the movement, particularly on the starboard tack, but there was still obvious movement. The only logical fix, as some others have said, is a rigid connection between the xbar and the hull.

This thread has suddenly gone quiet for many months, which is surprising. Have I missed something? Has a fix arrived? Or has everyone given up and bought jetskis?


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 Post subject: Re: TI FWD XBAR FAILURE
PostPosted: Thu Apr 04, 2013 1:39 am 
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Joined: Tue May 18, 2010 2:31 pm
Posts: 2653
Location: Kailua 96734
I wish. :roll:

You are making all the right moves. Loctite the new bar connections when you get it and raise the mast cup enough so that the furling ring doesn't bind when the mast is loaded. Order and install the new SS set screw in the v-brace, while you're at it. Check that all of your plastic bearings are in place.

We changed ours but still get a clunk or 2 and are considering pinning the bar. You can't do this near the aka joints, though cuz the Aka clips may become obstructed.

We're just going to have to trust Hobies new part. I read it as a good thing that this thread is so quiet now, don't you?


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 Post subject: Re: TI FWD XBAR FAILURE
PostPosted: Thu Apr 04, 2013 5:04 am 
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Joined: Mon Feb 28, 2011 5:58 pm
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Location: Adelaide, South Australia
Thanks Nohuhu for a prompt reply. At least I know that the thread has not somehow been deleted, in which case I am prepared to share some of your optimism that no news might be good news. I am still a bit puzzled though as to why a significant and apparently un-fixed problem has gone quiet.
When you say loctite the new bar connections, do you mean the bolts or the contact between the crossbar and the saddle and hold-down itself? I am tempted to do the latter to see if I can glue the structure together, but have no idea whether this will work, particularly as the saddle and hold-down are plastic. And I don't want a permanent bond in case I have to pull it all apart down the track. So, to clarify, where do you think I should apply loctite, and what grade?
Meanwhile, I am imagining a fibre-reinforced moulded plastic hold-down that has lateral extensions through which short screws (to avoid fouling the aka insertion) can be driven into the crossbar providing a rigid junction. Hobie could easily engineer and manufacture this. The moulding could be shaped to accomodate the jam cleats sitting on top, and with two screws either side of a saddle, the lateral load would be shared by 4 screws on each tack. Given that my crossbar was slamming back and forth for days before I realised what the problem was, and it didn't shear the 2 screws holding the jam cleat, which were the only stop against lateral movement on the port tack, I reckon 4 screws that don't have to cope with instantaneous loading might survive.
What do the engineers out there think?


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 Post subject: Re: TI FWD XBAR FAILURE
PostPosted: Thu Apr 04, 2013 4:04 pm 
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Joined: Tue May 18, 2010 2:31 pm
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Location: Kailua 96734
Well, I'm not a rocket surgeon, but my thinking was that pinning the collar to the crossbar was the real solution. It's the only place that really doesn't flex. The inserted end of the Aka bar gets in the way of doing this, but pinning from the top or sides may be still be feasible.

Until hobie designs a crossbar clamp with pins molded in, (or a metal version), we could try tapping holes in the top clamp and crossbar to match the stainless screws used to mount our Harken cleats. One shortened screw in each clamp might be enough to prevent side slip. Two would surely work, maybe at the risk of weakening the clamp. They would have to be shallow.

Or, if you want to put a removable stainless pin right through the clamp, crossbar and inserted clip, you may just cure the "Dreaded spontaneous aka separation" problem at the same time. It's just a question of shear strength. :shock:

I have the feeling that, with all the other components, this would add enough grip so that the bar would no longer travel.

The safer alternative would be adding a couple small, flat blocks to the bar, right against the side edges of the collar. This would prevent any side slip, as suggested in georeub's diagram.

Image

An angle bracket could do the same thing, more effectively maybe.

To answer your other question, Blue loctite on everything, except the upper turnbuckle connections.


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 Post subject: Re: TI FWD XBAR FAILURE
PostPosted: Wed Apr 10, 2013 4:04 am 
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Location: Adelaide, South Australia
Thanks again Nohuhu
Lots of things to think about. The idea of just drilling through the lot and putting a pin in had not occurred to me but the more I think about it the more attractive it is. I am sure it would stop lateral slop, even with a pin of fairly modest diameter, and as you say, it would elimnate the aka separation risk completely. Obviously drilling will weaken the components, and fixing the crossbar to the collar will transfer lateral force relentlessly to a component that has been structurally compromised - but otherwise the mast support weld is subjected to repeated slamming impacts and will fail as it is starting to do on my boat. Hobson's choice.
I have not seen the structure but it sounds like the AIs have a rigid connection engineered in. I think we need the same. What about replacing the top part of the collar with lugs welded onto the crossbar through which the tie down bolts pass. This would require Hobie offering to replace existing crossbars, but I think this structure is every bit as important to reliability and safety as the rudder, and they earned serious brand loyalty by acknowledging that problem and responding to it promptly.
I am still bewildered that this issue hasn't been fixed by Hobie, and concerned that any fix I do may then void any warranty claim. This would be unfair given that there is an obvious engineering issue at the heart of the problem.
I would like to discuss this with Hobie, but am not sure how to do so. Any suggestions out there?


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 Post subject: Re: TI FWD XBAR FAILURE
PostPosted: Wed Apr 10, 2013 7:13 am 
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Location: sarasota,fl
abonnin :
This is an interesting thread and kind of shows how Hobie is continuously trying to improve their product based on feedback from us users. The earlier TI's had a problem with the cross bar sliding back and forth, and also some heavy users had a problem with the weld breaking in the center of the AKA bar (where the sail mounts). These problems were un-related.
Hobie early on improved the welding process, so less failures would occur, then later on (I think in 2012) they further improved the weld process by add an additional weld to the back of the AKA. Since that correction I don't think there have been any broken AKA welds at all reported on the forum ( problem solved).
The AKA bar sliding problem in early models (mostly 2010 with the painted AKA Xbars) might have had something to do with manufacturing tolerance. The paint on the Xbar would wear and the joints under the 2 outer straps would become loose. Also the little rectangular block 3/4 x 1" x 4" long had enlarged clearance holes around the bolts, allowing the bolts to slide back and forth unless they were extremely tight. Another seemingly overlooked issue was the changing of the position of the front sail control and furling line Harken Blocks. In the early 2010 models there was one block mounted on each side of the right brace thus limiting the total possible side to side movement of the AKA bar to under 3/16 of an inch. Sometime in 2011 they changed the mounting of those blocks to look like the picture above, with the furler next to the mast, and the sail control mounted on the inside of the AKA brace. Without realizing that by moving the harken blocks there is no longer anything from preventing the AKA bar from sliding back and forth if any additional stress is placed on the bar and the bolts and screws are lees than optimum tightness (really tight). There really was nothing wrong with the original design, what became a problem I think was the manufacturing tolerances, and someone in manufacturing moving the Harken blocks without asking the original designer.
I have a 2012 TI now (my 3rd TI) bought last summer and have had no difficulty whatsoever with the AKA bar sliding back and forth, and I am typically running 260sq ft of sail on my TI, and at times I drive it pretty hard over a lot of miles in pretty much all conditions.
Hobie has corrected the tolerance problems on the holes in the little rectangular block, they I believe have moved the Harken blocks back to their original position on all new boats (one on each side of the brace) to limit movement. They appear to have tightened up the manufacturing tolerance on the AKA cross bars also (the anodized ones). In my opinion the problem is solved.
AKA welds:
My first TI was a very early model (may 2010) the weld was cracked from the factory, I'm a welder and pointed it out to the dealer when I bought the boat, that the weld was bad and would likely fail, it did fail after about a year and Hobie promptly replaced (around when I got my 2011 TI). I inspected the welds and they were much improved (I believe they changed their weld process). I had no issues with the second AKA and drove it very hard for many miles with way too much sail area. On my 3rd 2012 TI, Hobie had further strengthened the weld process by adding another weld on the back side. All the welds are of the highest quality. I have had no difficulties with AKA breakage ( problem solved in my opinion).
To summarize Hobie has been quietly improving their product with many seemingly small tweaks here and there. They have also been very good about replacing failed components under warranty in my opinion.
It's still a good idea to inspect everything periodically, if any sign of cracks or worn components, or excessive movement of the Xbar, notify your dealer.
Hope this helps set your mind at ease
Bob


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 Post subject: Re: TI FWD XBAR FAILURE
PostPosted: Wed Apr 10, 2013 3:03 pm 
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Location: Kailua 96734
Yes, Hobie has been terrific about fixing and replacing the crossbar problems.

We still get some clunking though, after replacing the bar with the through-welded version, so I'm not convinced the problem has disappeared, but it's improved and the new crossbar can handle more stress.

The adjacent Harken cleats will only stop excessive bar travel, and not the more common, back and forth 1/8 - 1/4" slip. This is why I feel that pinning is still required.

I don't know for sure, but I suspect Hobie moved the furling cleat towards the center to allow for easier furling, (a noted problem among gurly-man TI owners). But this puts it in the middle of front passenger, and that really frustrates attempts to control reefing lines from the rear cockpit.


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