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PostPosted: Mon Sep 03, 2012 10:05 pm 
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Location: sarasota,fl
We live in an area with very little wind typically (Sarasota,FL). I still like to go out every weekend all year round (the sun shines here around 350 days/yr).
I have noticed many larger sail boats out sailing even when the winds are very low (<5mph), I have noticed quite a few of those boats have their motor running while they sail, a captain friend of mine calls it motor sailing (he says most everyone does it in low winds on the big boats).

I have a 20 lb 2 hp 4 stroke emergency gas motor on my Tandem Island.
Since I never go out in the gulf without the motor, I thought I would try motor sailing just for the heck of it. I mentioned motor sailing a while back in a posting and a couple people asked me to post video of me motor sailing the TI. Unfortunately I don't have a go-pro so you will have to bear rough cell phone video.

I was out today and there was almost no wind all day, it was blowing it appeared be around 2-4 mph and changing direction quite a bit. I don't know how many have tried to sail a TI in those conditions, but it is a little boring, you typically only go 1-2 mph, and you have to peddle to get that.
With all the sails down and only running the motor I am normally able to get 4.5 to 5mph ( I don't really like to go any slower than that). Now if you look at the video below you will see by opening up the sails (even though there was no wind) I was able to get even more speed, today I think my top speed with the motor on and the main and jib out was around 6 mph (thats with almost no wind at all). The second video shows me trying to sail with the motor turned off, I was able to get 1-2 mph (with both main and jib deployed), and that was about it.
Don't ask me why the boat goes faster when running the motor, and having the sails up, I have no idea why, I just know it works. I guess if it works with pedaling with the sail up it stands to reason, it also works running the motor, and using the sails even though there in no wind.

sailing in no wind with the motor
[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qiK_GM_U9pY&feature=plcp[/youtube]

sailing in no wind without motor
[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zW62S1_RfYQ&feature=channel&list=UL[/youtube]


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PostPosted: Tue Sep 04, 2012 7:40 am 
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fusioneng wrote:
Don't ask me why the boat goes faster when running the motor, and having the sails up, I have no idea why, I just know it works. I guess if it works with pedaling with the sail up it stands to reason, it also works running the motor, and using the sails even though there in no wind.


You are experiencing the effect of "apparent wind" and you really should understand the phenomenon. Here is a good, if overly wordy article:

http://www.sailnet.com/forums/learning-sail-articles/18848-understanding-apparent-wind.html

This paragraph perhaps explains what you experience while motor sailing:

"The fourth point was that when a boat is reaching or beating, the apparent wind is of greater velocity than the true wind. You are, in effect, "making your own wind." In iceboating this is an important part of the resulting high speeds. Some iceboats, for instance, can reach speeds five to six times the speed of the wind and can attain speeds of 120 knots in 24 knots of wind. The faster the boat goes, the higher the wind velocity it creates. Only because of the lack of friction can these high speeds be attained. A normal sailboat is limited in speed by hull resistance, skin friction, and wave-making drag, so it cannot take full advantage of the increased apparent-wind velocity. A planing sailboat is more apt to get up on a high-speed plane while on a reach rather than a run just because of this apparent-wind increase. Even so, the faster a boat is to windward, the more close-winded (able to head close to the wind) it must be. "

You are driving the boat fast enough with the motor that the sails are benefiting from the artificial breeze you create. That's the same reason the large cruising boats do it, but the effect is much smaller due to their large displacement and drag...

John Davies
Spokane WA USA


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PostPosted: Sun Sep 09, 2012 11:43 am 
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Can u put up some pics of your motor mount? Thanks.


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PostPosted: Sun Sep 09, 2012 8:25 pm 
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Location: Adelaide, South Australia
And details of the motor please.

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PostPosted: Mon Sep 10, 2012 12:20 pm 
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Location: sarasota,fl
pav:
Sure no problem. I posted all the details on the construction of the motor mount and motor in the Hobie thread The ultimate tandem island (viewtopic.php?f=69&t=33720)

Here is a pic of the motor mount with 100ft of anchor line spooled onto it ( the anchor spool is a recent addition, (just a handy place to spool up the anchor line (up to 150ft of 3/8 nylon rope)).

Image

here is a close up of the motor mounted to the mount
Image

I bought the motor at a place in St Petersburg, Fl called Island hopper outboards. Here is the link (http://www.smalloutboardengines.com/20h ... flage.html)

I have ran that motor on My TI's, an Oasis, and a Revo, with the standard 4 1/2 inch pitch propeller the motor propels all three boats to around 4mph (a factor of the prop pitch (not the size of the boat)). The motor takes the same prop as the Merc 2 1/2 horse and Tohatsu so I put on a 7 inch pitch prop on the motor to try and get more speed on the TI. Unfortunately because it's a large boat, the 7 inch pitch prop can't get to full RPM (horsepower limited) so the best I typically get is around 5mph (The Revo really scoots up to around 8mph). I also have it rigged to run off of those small camper propane bottles (extra hoses and valves). Basically you start the motor on gas then turn on the propane and shut the gas off (pretty simple). I get maybe an hour or two run time per bottle. I have the short shaft version. the motor in this mount is actually a little too shallow in the water, you can hear the prop sucking air once in a while on the video (from being too shallow), but this is more because the motor is off to the side of the hull and when the boat tips (from sailing), it pull the motor up just enough to start skipping, tacking the other side, and straight ahead it's fine.
The motor mount slides into the rod holders, It is 1 1/2 inch PVC tubing. I then took two 3/8 dia steel rods ( 1/2" alumininum would have worked better), and drilled two holes into the end of a pressure treated 2x4, then glued the rods in with marine epoxy. I roughed the rods up and filed a few notches into them so they don't come out of the wood. I then matched the angle of the motor mount with the desired angle of the motor (so the shaft points straight down while using the motor). You know you have it right when the motor mound board is close to vertical when installed. (Note: The rod holders are tilted both back and outward so you have to compensate for this when you drill your holes in the board). I then just drilled holes through the PVC tubing to get the rods throught it. I put a radiator hose clamp on the far tube to hold everything together. I then just filled the tubes with Bondo boddy putty in and around where the rods went thru the tubes (not the entire tube). This holds everything all together and very strong. I then put on a PVC frame that loops up and over, and have a clip on top to guide the sail control line so it stays on top of the bracket while sailing. This also give the rear passenger some clearance for their head from the sail control lines. The bend in the sail control lines doesn't seem to affect the performance of the sail too much.

On one of my older hulls I sprayed insulation foam around the rod holders to kind of give them more strength, on this latest 2012 TI I didn't bother, the tubes seem to be holding up fine.
When running the motor it develops a lot of torque (from the prop driving forward) I took a small length of spectra (rudder line) cord and ran from just below the motor mound (tied around the shaft), then clipped with a clip to the (now unused) bungy connector near the back of the boat (just behind the motor). This stops the motor from rocking forward and backward while throttling up or down, and keeps the rotational stess down on the motor mount and rod holders.
I also have a safety line so if the motor ever falls off in the water you can retrieve it. (I have lost several motors that way).
As I have mentioned I'm not as happy with this motor as I would like, I should have spent a little more and got the Honda motor. It all works ok and all, and I have quite a few miles on it over the last 2-3 yrs, but it is not really designed for salt water, or reliability like a Honda or Merc would be. This is the one I should have got ( http://m.marine.honda.com/#/outboards/motor-detail/BF2). The Honda is only a couple hundred more (around $750), and only 7 lbs heavier than the Island hopper, It does only have a 75 deg tilt though, and the motor mount might need to be modified.
Good luck
Bob


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PostPosted: Mon Sep 10, 2012 1:29 pm 
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Location: High Point, NC
I have what I think is that same motor (4-cycle, air cooled) that I'd like to sell. It's been used less than 30 minutes and I'd sell it at a substantial discount from what it and the shipping originaly cost. I couldn't ship it, however, it'd have to be picked up at my location.

Nothing at all wrong with it. Just something we picked up to try something and it quickly became clear it wasn't going to work for what we wanted to do.


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PostPosted: Fri Sep 21, 2012 11:12 am 
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Thanks.
Good stuff, .. That anchor is huge!


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PostPosted: Fri Sep 21, 2012 12:31 pm 
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Location: Tampa Bay, FL
looks like some sort of weedeater motor? the head definately looks like a weedeater with a prop on it
lol

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2012 Hobie Tandem Island - Papaya


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PostPosted: Mon Sep 24, 2012 5:30 pm 
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We motor-sail the TI whenever the wind is light using the Hobie Evolve motor which has built-in GPS and mount it in the rear Mirage well. All battery wiring is running inboard with just a quick plug connection at the rear seat. When there is good wind we simply throttle down, the GPS keeps tracking our speed, and we sail for free. The motor expands our range and enjoyment greatly. It's also very cool to have large cruising sailboats do double takes as we motor thru the channel sail up! Cocktails anyone? They simply don't know what they're missing not having a TI.


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PostPosted: Mon Sep 24, 2012 5:47 pm 
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Location: sarasota,fl
C-haul1:
We would all be very interested in any information you can share regarding your TI running the evolve. Speeds, range, etc. Also I'm very interested in the solar charging option ( if available yet). I looked into the evolve a while back and felt the evolve could not provide enough power for my needs because of the TI's larger size, maybe I Should look at it again.


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PostPosted: Fri Sep 28, 2012 4:27 pm 
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To be accurate,we use the Evolve mostly for supplemental power,when there is little wind, although I have run it at times at about 80% output for more than 1/2 hour and used up less than 15% of the battery's capacity. if you project that performance, she should run like that easily for 3 hours. That power will get you going 4.3- 5.0 mph, or somewhat less if going against a good current and travel 11 - 12 miles. The GPS keeps an estimated projection of your distance remaining based upon your speed and power usage so you are not guessing. Nice feature. These results are with gear and passengers of 425 lbs and ama's fully extended. The Evolve whines a little like a drill powered mixer, at first annoying, but is not terrible. I also was intrigued by the solar charger, so I looked into it a bit. It seems it can provide continuous power at a lower trolling speed. I opted not to spring for it because my current sailing is limited to 3-4hour outings and the battery charge does a fine job by itself in my opinion, although the solar power would give you good "green" bragging rights as well as extend the duration of your outings.
Hmm, I think I'm convincing myself!


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PostPosted: Mon Oct 01, 2012 1:58 pm 
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Location: Delaware Coast
Bob,

I don't think you are going to find happiness with a Torqeedo. I have an Ultralight 403 and a Travel 1003 and I will share a bit of information about both of them.

This was my first go, the T1003 on a makeshift/temporary mount:

Image

It is big! Way bigger than I imagined it was when I ordered it. The main problem I had with it was that when in the upright position, the motor/prop portion was still in the water even with it mounted as high as you see in the picture. The tiller is so long that it was also under water unless the motor was turned one way or the other.

I decided the Ultralight would be enough power so I bought one with the intention of selling the T1003. After reading "i-Balls mounted Torqeedo" and exchanging some emails and getting some additional pics from Steve, I mounted mine as shown here:

Image

You can't rudder mount the eVolve on an AI/TI and I couldn't live with mirage well mounting so I thought this was the perfect solution for me. If you look close you can see a pin that I pull to slide the main assembly from the tube mount bolted to the gunwales. I was quite happy with it ... then I tried it out :(

I was only able to hit around 3.5 MPH in calmish water. If I stuck something in front of the pylon acting as a foil I could hit around 4 MPH. The eVolve has a foil but the Ultralight does not. It badly needs one as it sucks air at top speed causing this performance variation. The good news is that I was using the 520 battery from the T1003 with it and it would go a long way. I don't remember the figures its display showed but I think it was over 10 miles at top speed. The bad news was that I can pedal the TI faster than the Ultralight would push it.

Currently, I have the pylon/motor from the T1003 mounted in the Ultralight mount shown in the picture above. The T1003 has a foil on the pylon so it doesn't suck any air. It pushes the fully loaded TI along at 6.9 MPH on smooth water and near 6 MPH in rough water into a stiff headwind . The downfall of this setup is the range ... the T1003 takes a lot of energy. At full throttle the range is less than 3 miles. I would like to have longer range, but I can live with it for my purposes. I have read your posts and don't think you could. The solar panel can be used on either of them but I don't think it could add much range to the T1003 at higher speeds.

I will stay with the T1003 power unit as the Ultralight is useless for my needs. With the current setup, the motor is fixed and steering is done with the rudder as one does with the eVolve. This works fine in open water; however, when I am trying to maneuver around something like a busy boat ramp with a strong current in play, using the tiller gives w-a-y better maneuverability. Therefore, over the winter I will be trying to workout a way to use the tiller control. When using the tiller controller, you can simply lock the motor position and use the rudder when you want so you get the best of both methods this way. I will probably also add an eVolve cable kit so I can mount the battery below deck (the batteries, cables and controllers are interchangeable between the Ultralight 403, Travel 503, Travel 1003 and the eVolve V2).


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PostPosted: Thu Oct 04, 2012 8:39 am 
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Watching at a few true youtube video about evolve, everyone can learn how much this motor is noisy and a few functional. I don't like it.

I think Hobie kayakers need Hobiecat makes a better new model for 2013.


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PostPosted: Thu Oct 04, 2012 7:48 pm 
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Location: Mt Kuring-Gai, NSW, Australia
Quote:
We motor-sail the TI whenever the wind is light using the Hobie Evolve motor which has built-in GPS and mount it in the rear Mirage well. All battery wiring is running inboard with just a quick plug connection at the rear seat. When there is good wind we simply throttle down, the GPS keeps tracking our speed, and we sail for free. The motor expands our range and enjoyment greatly. It's also very cool to have large cruising sailboats do double takes as we motor thru the channel sail up! Cocktails anyone? They simply don't know what they're missing not having a TI.


Does the Evolve provide its own steering when mounted in the Tandem Island drive well?

The reason I ask is in the event of unexpected weather and the rudder PIN
breaking, I would want to be able to get home with it


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PostPosted: Thu Oct 04, 2012 9:15 pm 
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Location: Forster, NSW, Australia
Short answer is no, and I can say from bitter experience that a TI is very hard to steer without a rudder, at least from the front seat. I was able to sail a couple of miles on port tack, but the thing was uncontrollable on starboard.

I have added external back-up steering lines.
Image
And modified my spare rudder pins so I can fit 2mm zip ties rather than split rings, which I consider too hard to fit from onboard (maybe not so hard if done by someone in their own kayak)
Image

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Tony Stott
2012 Tandem Island "SIC EM"
www.scenefromabove.com.au


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