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PostPosted: Mon Nov 05, 2012 12:07 pm 
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While I was working pin/mark boat at Hobie 16/20 NAs in Sausalito I became somewhat envious of HCA and the fact they put on One Design events, even for boats out of production. There are no NAs for the Tiger One Design in the US since the F18s are the focus. I began to pine for the days when the Tiger was in the center of the technology bubble --- and the One Design events here in the US. I was reminiscing about the Hobie Mega event at Fort Walton Beach, Tiger Worlds in 2005 at Santa Barbara and the NAs at Harrison Hot Springs and Lake Havasu . It was truly events where everyone sailed the same boat and it was the sailor that mattered. Granted you can argue that the boats were not ever really exactly alike but they were fundamentally the same boat. It was not the scenario of planing hulls and non-planing hulls as it is in the F18 formula format today.

I accept the fact I’ve never been and most likely never will be exceptional at racing the boat while 10 plus years later I’m still learning. I understand to be good requires time on the water that I don’t have nor will I get a lot of sailing days to practice to improve. But I’ve had memorable situations and have been competitive at times at major events. But what was the best aspect was I could always freshen the boat’s performance with new sails or some other recently approved part (self-tacker, snuffer, tapered sheets etc) and my focus was always on improving my sailing ability. This is not the case with F18 now.

If I hear F18 referred to as a one design boat I’ll go screaming into the night (more often than I do now). It is not a one design! It is a box format! Whatever fits into the box is legal. You now have two fronts that you have to address. The first is the sailor as it is in One Design Racing. The other is the boat itself. As new boats fit into the box you have to find the “right” boat and move in that direction. A-cats have been doing this for years now. It is a costly proposition as you always are lining the pockets of the manufacturers in a big way. You MUST chase the technology to give your sailing skills a chance at being competitive. It is interesting to find this subject coming up in major sailing publications by leaders in the sport. Controlling costs of the sport is the only way you’re going to bring in new sailors into the sport while giving them a shot at being competitive.

Although being attractive from a cost perspective, older design boats are just not competitive or they would still be a major presence in the big F18 events. The top sailors are not sailing older boats nor are the boats a significant percentage of the competition. So what do we do with the sailors that have good one design boats or folks that want to get into sailing spinnaker cats but can’t spring for the big bucks and with no venue where they can be competitive?. I want to race my 2008 Tiger as a One Design. I want to race my Tiger against other Tigers, sailor to sailor. Right now it would appear I have to go to Europe to do so as there doesn’t seem to be venues here. I hope HCA will take the leadership position and resurrect the class and have a program like there is for the Hobie 17, 18 and 20s. What I will do is support any event that does have a “real” one design format that would accept the Tiger. I appreciate HCA supporting One Design sailing and have been an avid member of the organization for years. Next year at the Seattle NOOD, I will again register my boat as a Hobie Tiger One Design not a F18. If no other Tiger wants to join me, I will withdraw. I’m over with trying to compete on a field that is in no way level, it just isn’t fun anymore.


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PostPosted: Mon Nov 05, 2012 12:52 pm 
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Location: Thunder Bay,On
There ir rumored to be talks going on of combining the Tiger Class with the Hobie 16, Hobie 18 and 20's at next years N.A.'s.


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PostPosted: Mon Nov 05, 2012 6:03 pm 
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Location: Indialantic, FL
Tiger850,

I couldn't agree more. I think the used Tigers are an amazing deal right now, providing the best "performance and feature-per-dollar" value. And that's why I just bought one (2007). It's incredible to think that you can get a used Tiger in great condition for just a little more than a new Getaway. I'd love to find some Tiger class races here on the east coast of Florida. Similar to you, I don't expect to be winning anything but would enjoy the opportunity to improve against others racing the same boat.

Mark

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PostPosted: Mon Nov 05, 2012 6:44 pm 
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excellent post. racing has become an all or nothing venture. black or white, no gray. either you are an A fleeter or you arent racing.

all the racers are hot shots. no room for novices, b fleeters, poor guys, blue collar working man, etc....


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PostPosted: Tue Nov 06, 2012 12:08 pm 
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That is not true Gino. There are a few classes that it seems just the hotshots are left, and I would attribute that to there are only a few boats around and its the real enthusiasts sailing them. 14 comes to mind, also the 20. But the 18, 17 and 16 class if FULL of hacks and newbies. I can say this because I am one of them. LOVE my 17, not even on the same lake as the top 5 guys. Mid pack on the 16s in the bigger events. Had some luck on the Wave this year, but I had an weight advantage on most with the bigger wind.
You'll find B fleets at alot of regattas in the 16 fleet.


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PostPosted: Tue Nov 06, 2012 4:28 pm 
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Location: Nepean S.C. Ottawa, Canada
I'd love to get an older Tiger....

We do Weds night 'around the buoys' club racing, and I am the only Hobie around.
It's tough sailing against Tornado's and the odd Inter 20 or F16, but it sure does hone one's sailing skills.
We've learnt a huge amount this past season.

I'd buy a Tiger tomorrow if there were at least two others in the Weds night races.

I wonder how soon used Wildcats will appear?

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1989 Hobie SX18 Sail # 1947
'Only two things are infinite, the universe, and human stupidity. But I'm not sure about the former.'


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PostPosted: Wed Nov 07, 2012 2:18 am 
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http://www.catsailingnews.com/2012/11/r ... etail.html

INTERESTING READ.

some thoughts -

eurpoe is the leader in racing catamarans.
NACRA is the leader? has been for a while?
NACRA is todays version of Hobie Cat 1970's, 1980's.
Europe is focused on high performance catamarans and sailing fast.
good business model.
NACRAs marketing target is folks that want to sail fast and charge hard.
the guy said the magical word, "youth".
why the heck was a Hobie 16 up against this boat in the trials for the Olympic boat, and the Tiger(euro design)...where was the Wildcat(euro boat)? Hobie never stood a chance.

i hate to beat a dead horse, and im not Hobie bashing.
just making an observation again that the USA is getting crushed by europe and Hobie USA has acquired Hobie Europe, what is gonna happen?
i have supported Hobie for 36 yrs and I love the lifestyle and the Hobie brand but geez, for the first time in my life I think i will be buying a different catamaran the next time I buy one.

not entirely Hobies fault here, the USA is falling behind in general, not just sailing, it seems we are a country of lazy geeks and are falling behind in many aspects of life. where is the organization, the community, the spark, the enthusiasm, innovation, federations, funding? its not here. are we distracted by the NBA, NFL, MLB? is this why so many of the smaller sports are not important? why are sailing schools and youth programs and college sailing programs using lasers and shoe boats? why are these kids not on cats? are we all glued to our flatscreens and social networking and video games? Long gone are the days when i used to clown other catamarans and tell my friends Hobies are the best, no need to look elsewhere. Prindles and Sol Cats have turned into Nacras and A-cats and Cirrus cats. will the WildCat vanish as fast as the Fox?

its a bummer. very disappointing.
where are the leaders?

i apologize, bad night.

rant over


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PostPosted: Wed Nov 07, 2012 3:24 am 
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Location: Netherlands Europe
Quote:
why are sailing schools and youth programs and college sailing programs using lasers and shoe boats? why are these kids not on cats?


Bij our Catsailingclub ,we had the same idea
And for a few years we have now an youth sailing program
The kids loving it

http://vimeo.com/wereldtopzeilen/promo2012

And when there are older thy sail on H 16 and F 16


Quote:
I’m over with trying to compete on a field that is in no way level, it just isn’t fun anymore.


In our club there are mostly F18 infusions even the MK2
So i can only follow on my 2000 tiger 2007 sails

But in the club competion the have gave some older A cat,s a handicap from 102 instead 101
So i ask next year for an other handicap instead of 100 ,mabey i can compeet than :D ,or buy a new sail

_________________
Hobie Wildcat sailnr NED 16 & NED 1111
Hobie Tiger sailnr 973 sold
Hobie 16 sail nr 104195 sold
470 sailnr NED 560 sold


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PostPosted: Wed Nov 07, 2012 9:47 am 
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Location: Oceanside, California
gino wrote:
eurpoe is the leader in racing catamarans


That's like saying Alaska is the leader in Eskimo population... Europe has run off in a direction that isn't sustainable in the catamaran market. That doesn't really make them a leader at all.

Quote:
NACRA is todays version of Hobie Cat 1970's, 1980's.


For who? That's out there. Not in mass appeal, not in sales. Not true at all... they are DREAMING.

Quote:
Europe is focused on high performance catamarans.


That seems to be true.

Quote:
good business model.


Proven otherwise...

Quote:
why the heck was a Hobie 16 up against this boat in the trials for the Olympic boat, and the Tiger(euro design)...


Because it is established World Wide... as a youth boat as well. We have been doing youth events and youth Worlds on Hobie 16s for years.

It isn't about what boat gets around a course fastest.

Quote:
just making an observation again that the USA is getting crushed by europe


How so? Crushed because a Euro Nacra model was chosen as the Olympic class boat? It's a death sentence in my opinion. Would have ruined the Hobie 16 class.

Quote:
not entirely Hobies fault here, the USA is falling behind in general, not just sailing


Not sure what news channel you watch, but Hobie USA is KILLING IT! in the World sailing market. Maybe not in what you want, but in the consensus of this topic... fun one design and recreational sailing is still alive and well. It's the guys doing the open designs and hi end stuff that are killing that market. Fragment by fragment...

Hobie Alter had a vision. It worked... it works still.

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Matt Miller
Director of Parts and Accessory Sales
Hobie Cat USA


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PostPosted: Wed Nov 07, 2012 10:36 am 
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Location: Jersey Shore
mmiller wrote:
Hobie Alter had a vision. It worked... it works still.


I definitely agree that one design racing is what the vast majority of "weekend warrior" sailors should be doing- not formula or box rule classes, and not handicap. Those other classes ALWAYS turn into $$$ wars.

But the unfortunate fact is that there is presently really only ONE one-design beach cat class with active participation nation-wide and currently in production - the Hobie 16. And like it or not, that simply isn't a boat that is appropriate or appeals to a lot of current or prospective cat racers. It's been discussed before, but I could definitely see the appeal of a true one-design racing class that has some modern features (like an easy to use assymetrical spinnaker or hooter), hull volume for two average size adults, simplicity combined with performance, and robust construction which will both handle the abuse of people learning and allow decent resale in the used market. The problem with the "old Tiger" concept is that the class stopped being a true one-design a long time ago.

sm


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PostPosted: Wed Nov 07, 2012 10:43 am 
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Location: Clear Lake Iowa
Wait.....where the hell can you get Eskimos but in Alaska?

I am going to say this outloud so prepare yourself: If you want ONE DESIGN racing in your area, other Tigers, H16s.....Waves....C2....whatever.....you gotta do the work and get the people together. Hope and Change isn't just going to happen (I know....I am hilarious) You'll have to put it together. I know from personal experience that if you do the work, you'll be able to put it together. If the boats available don't tickle your fancy, then try something else.


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PostPosted: Wed Nov 07, 2012 12:13 pm 
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xanderwess wrote:
If you want ONE DESIGN racing in your area, other Tigers, H16s.....Waves....C2....whatever.....you gotta do the work and get the people together.


Again, only one of the classes you mentioned is a true ONE DESIGN class - Hobie 16. I agree that it takes ground work to get things going, but there has to be a platform to start with.

sm


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PostPosted: Wed Nov 07, 2012 12:40 pm 
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zzzzzz......
The Tiger is the Tiger and the Wave class has added a few things but is essentially the same as far as someone rounding up others to race against and having pretty much the same boat. Semantics. I am not trying to belittle your issue, but its a hell of alot easier to get people that HAVE boats to agree on a configuration than it would be ask the manufacturer to create a boat. If international OD is what you're after, maybe multihull isn't the answer. Maybe Laser, 420/470, Sunfish is......


Last edited by xanderwess on Wed Nov 07, 2012 2:17 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Wed Nov 07, 2012 2:13 pm 
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Location: eureka,california
I think the problem is there was a good One Design Tiger racing for a while. However these people also want to race F-18. If you want to be competitive in the fleet you needed to get one of the newer boat designs as the Tiger was a dominate platform for over 10 years but is now falling way behind in rig and platform design. So most F-18 / Tiger racers have moved on.

There was a great interest in the Wildcat, yet when it was introduced it wasn't going to be a HCANA Class approved boat. This led several people to say well if I can't race Hobie then why buy one? There have also been talk that the Wildcat missed the mark on bow volume and sail shape. (sail has been changed)

Now there are a lot of people who had Tigers who now have other brands of boats and most of the Tigers have been modified. Aftermarket sails Marstrom boards, even seen some with new masts and sail plans from other boats. So there is very few one design tigers available. Even then the platform has changed several times and the sails have changed almost as many.

I love my Tiger and will buy a new boat next year , but unless the next few months sailing the Wildcat changes my mind I will have to leave the Hobie family of boats. 15 years I have had a H-18 or Tiger maybe just get a new boat for racing and keep the Tiger for a play boat.

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Rich Vilvens
F-18 5150
R.Vilvens@yahoo.com
http://www.sailblogs.com/member/f-185150sailing/


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PostPosted: Wed Nov 07, 2012 2:48 pm 
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Reminds me of a discussion re the splintering of the H18...SE, Magnum, SX, International etc. Horrible when that happens....Matt Bounds told me that at the 1989 Hobie Nationals, the 'supplied' boat was an 18SX, and no one knew how to sail them! So one design should be just that, one design.

Am I correct in saying that either we have a strict rules for the boat OR we have a 'box' or a 'formula' rule? One of my Tornado buddies also competes in an International 14...and both of those boats have to fit within a formula. So each T and each I-14 is slightly different from others in each class, yet they seem to race and have fun.

Life is complicated....I'll stick with my club racing and scoot around the buoys trying to keep up with the T's and the F16 Blade and the Inter 20....and we'll all enjoy oat sodas afterwards...

_________________
1989 Hobie SX18 Sail # 1947
'Only two things are infinite, the universe, and human stupidity. But I'm not sure about the former.'


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