Hobie Cat Forums

It is currently Wed Oct 22, 2014 6:48 pm

All times are UTC - 8 hours [ DST ]




Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 45 posts ]  Go to page Previous  1, 2, 3  Next
Author Message
PostPosted: Wed Nov 07, 2012 3:42 pm 
Offline
Site Rank - Old Salt

Joined: Mon May 09, 2005 10:25 am
Posts: 2590
Location: Jersey Shore
xanderwess wrote:
The Tiger is the Tiger


Couldn't be farther from the truth. I doubt there are many production classes of any type that have undergone more design changes during their existence than the Tiger. How many different sail plans, rudder systems, dagger boards, trampolines, rigging plans, etc. have there been for the Tiger over the last two or so decades?

John Lunn wrote:
Am I correct in saying that either we have a strict rules for the boat OR we have a 'box' or a 'formula' rule?


Well, the Tiger class tried to achieve both, but in the end, they have no true one-design class and the design is now considered to be outdated at the highest levels of F18 racing, so it's poised to join another of Hobie's orphan classes.

The question is, is there interest in a true one-design spinnaker beach cat class? There are plenty of offerings for Formula class spinnaker boats, but there is no modern one-design spinnaker beach cat racing that I'm aware of.

sm


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Thu Nov 08, 2012 11:31 am 
Offline
Site Rank - Admiral

Joined: Thu Sep 23, 2010 1:58 pm
Posts: 178
Location: SE Michigan / NE Indiana
The guys at N***a are trying to do it with the new N17 olympic boat. I'm in the market to upgrade from my H18, but am not heading that route.

Re the Tiger - What a perfect entry to cat spinnaker racing. Cost on them is not that high anymore and they still sail quite well. Our club got one this spring and I had a fantastic time learning the finer points of F-18 sailing. Had a few good days where by luck or the grace of God, I was able to hang-with and <very> occasional best an Infusion and C2.

_________________
Jeff R
'88 H18 Jolly Mon
'10 F18 Closely Called
Sail Michigan's Great Lakes in 2014
cramsailing.com


Last edited by rehmbo on Thu Nov 08, 2012 12:45 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Thu Nov 08, 2012 11:48 am 
Offline
Site Rank - Old Salt

Joined: Mon Jul 04, 2005 10:13 am
Posts: 701
Location: Nepean S.C. Ottawa, Canada
On that Tiger, could you beat any Tornados?

_________________
1989 Hobie SX18 Sail # 1947
'Only two things are infinite, the universe, and human stupidity. But I'm not sure about the former.'


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Thu Nov 08, 2012 11:59 am 
Offline
Site Rank - Admiral

Joined: Thu Sep 23, 2010 1:58 pm
Posts: 178
Location: SE Michigan / NE Indiana
Sure I can. As long as they're dragging a 5kg anchor! :lol:

It depends on conditions (and skill of sailor). If its the older style with just 2 sails, there is a small chance of catching them downwind. However, if they're sport rigged with twin-trap and spinnaker, then it ain't happenen...

_________________
Jeff R
'88 H18 Jolly Mon
'10 F18 Closely Called
Sail Michigan's Great Lakes in 2014
cramsailing.com


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Thu Nov 08, 2012 12:07 pm 
Offline
Site Rank - Old Salt

Joined: Mon May 09, 2005 10:25 am
Posts: 2590
Location: Jersey Shore
rehmbo wrote:
The guys at N***a are trying to do it with the new 17 olympic boat. I'm in the market to upgrade from my H18, but am not heading that route.


Again, the problem (ok, not necessarily a "problem") with the NACRA 17 is that it's designed for the highest level of performance. It's not the boat for most weekend warriors. I suspect it will be along the lines of the Tornado- constant upgrades, sailed exclusively by the highest caliber racers, very expensive to maintain, fragile, etc.

The issue with the Tiger is that it really isn't a one-design. It tried to be, but it isn't anymore. What are you going to do when you show up at a Tiger "one-design" event and your boat has the old style pin head mainsail, non-self tacking jib, older design spinnaker, daggerboards, etc and someone else shows up with all the latest gizmos? Yes you can all race, but it's not true one-design and so at that point, you might as well just invite all the F18 guys to come and play (which is basically where the class is now). Plus, it's unlikely that you can get a new Tiger now that the Wildcat has come along, so anyone that wants to join in with a new boat is S.O.L.

The boat that I keep coming back to is the Pearl. It seems like a very good offering as a slightly de-tuned F18 style boat with modern features, robust design, easy handling third sail. It looks like it would be a very fun platform for true one-design spinnaker racing. Basically an updated version of the H18. But the sailors, HCA, and Hobie would have to really get behind the class if they wanted it to succeed.

sm


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Thu Nov 08, 2012 12:14 pm 
Offline
Site Rank - Old Salt

Joined: Mon Jul 04, 2005 10:13 am
Posts: 701
Location: Nepean S.C. Ottawa, Canada
Like your thinking SRM....
I'd go for that.
does the Pearl have skeg keels?
and straight cross bars?

_________________
1989 Hobie SX18 Sail # 1947
'Only two things are infinite, the universe, and human stupidity. But I'm not sure about the former.'


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Thu Nov 08, 2012 12:27 pm 
Offline
Site Rank - Old Salt

Joined: Mon May 09, 2005 10:25 am
Posts: 2590
Location: Jersey Shore
The Pearl has Hobie 17 style centerboards as far as I can tell. It has straight crossbars- basically a modified Tiger platform.

sm


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Thu Nov 08, 2012 12:37 pm 
Offline
Site Rank - Admiral

Joined: Thu Sep 23, 2010 1:58 pm
Posts: 178
Location: SE Michigan / NE Indiana
Agree with you on all accounts.

However, I'll throw this out there - just because someone's thinking it: Mischa Heemskerk won the Canadian F18 Nationals just 2 short years ago on a Tiger. Of course, he'd probably win on an Opti, but the point is that the boat is not that bad.

Biggest issue I see regarding the various iterations of the Tiger is the change in the mainsail. I sailed both the original semi-pin-head and the ST sail this summer. You could definitely tell the difference in light air. Once it gets heavier and you're having to de-power, I doubt there is much advantage.

Back to the original Tiger one-design topic, I think the only way to get there is to re-confirm what a Tiger one-design is. Since most of the boats are hand-me-downs from F-18 racing and have gone through the upgrade cycle, perhaps it should be the last iteration with STX sails, flatter-cut spinny, and self-tacking jib. You could race with less and still be "class legal", but there would be an incentive to upgrade.

[Edit] This may already be the case today - haven't read the Tiger one-design rules.


BTW - I'd like to see the Pearl come over here as well. I think another thread discussed this at length.

_________________
Jeff R
'88 H18 Jolly Mon
'10 F18 Closely Called
Sail Michigan's Great Lakes in 2014
cramsailing.com


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Thu Nov 08, 2012 12:43 pm 
Offline
Site Rank - Old Salt

Joined: Mon Jul 04, 2005 10:13 am
Posts: 701
Location: Nepean S.C. Ottawa, Canada
like this...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7_o1C_DeCww&feature=related

looks like fun....and fast...

_________________
1989 Hobie SX18 Sail # 1947
'Only two things are infinite, the universe, and human stupidity. But I'm not sure about the former.'


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Thu Nov 08, 2012 12:44 pm 
Offline
Site Rank - Admiral

Joined: Mon Jun 20, 2011 9:22 pm
Posts: 220
+1 on the Pearl.

I think this boat can create some excitement here. If done correctly it could be a one design supported for the next 20 plus years. simple enough to give lessons on, robust enough to be called a beach cat and enough sail area to carry the interest of Fleet members.

Any F18 designs (IMHO) are a waste of money and expectations. Support the fleets and yacht clubs with robust exciting boats that people can aspire to sail.

F18s come with an expiration date similar to the milk in your refrigerator.

_________________
H18 '85
H18 '89 "Knotty Passion"
H20 '96 "20/20 Vision"
Fleet 259 Central Coast California


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Thu Nov 08, 2012 1:26 pm 
Offline
Site Rank - Old Salt

Joined: Mon May 09, 2005 10:25 am
Posts: 2590
Location: Jersey Shore
rehmbo wrote:
Back to the original Tiger one-design topic, I think the only way to get there is to re-confirm what a Tiger one-design is. Since most of the boats are hand-me-downs from F-18 racing and have gone through the upgrade cycle, perhaps it should be the last iteration with STX sails, flatter-cut spinny, and self-tacking jib. You could race with less and still be "class legal", but there would be an incentive to upgrade.


IMO, you'd be trying to build up a one-design fleet from a class that's about as far away from one-design as it gets. So many different iterations of the boat exist that it's impossible to level the playing field without everyone putting out $$$ to either upgrade or downgrade equipment to meet the one-design rules. Eliminating the "incentive to upgrade" is the whole premise of one-design racing. All the boats are equal- period.

It seems to me you'd be better off just racing in the Formula class where you can run what you've got and you have more boats to play with. At the weekend warrior level, it's generally the sailors that win the races, not the boats, so if you want to race a Tiger, just race in the F-18 class with what you've got, learn, and have fun.

sm


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Thu Nov 08, 2012 1:32 pm 
Offline
Site Rank - Admiral

Joined: Thu Sep 23, 2010 1:58 pm
Posts: 178
Location: SE Michigan / NE Indiana
Actually SRM, I plan to do exactly that (attempt to race F18s :) ).

Like the long line of boats before them, Tigers will likely be put to pasture and forever relegated to recreation and/or training. Not a terrible end, really. The people that sail them will undoubtedly be happier than the surly frustrated racers that had too high expectations.

_________________
Jeff R
'88 H18 Jolly Mon
'10 F18 Closely Called
Sail Michigan's Great Lakes in 2014
cramsailing.com


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Thu Nov 08, 2012 4:11 pm 
Offline
Site Rank - Old Salt

Joined: Thu Jun 05, 2003 9:57 am
Posts: 1604
Location: Clear Lake Iowa
Pearl? What the hell are we talking about here? We're not racing off the English coast or in Spain or France......that boat is nice and all but we don't got it here in Obamastan.
What are the criteria you are looking for?
**OD
**High/Med Performance?
**Cost??
**Secondary Market?
Let's figure this out systematically.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Thu Nov 08, 2012 4:38 pm 
Offline
Site Rank - Old Salt

Joined: Sun Jun 08, 2003 7:21 pm
Posts: 901
Location: Thunder Bay,On
Some people just do not get it,they want the Pearl or next the Diamond then it is the.,,...The point is O.D. Racing is truly about the Class not the boat.
You have all of that already in the Hobie 16.Like the promo says challenging enough for the expert, simple enough for the beginner.
Figure it out, why do some of the top Cat Sailors in the World stll race it. Gavin Colby, Enrique Figueroa, Mitch Booth....


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Thu Nov 08, 2012 5:36 pm 
Offline
Site Rank - Old Salt

Joined: Mon May 09, 2005 10:25 am
Posts: 2590
Location: Jersey Shore
The Hobie 16 is great for teenagers or old men that want to race with 10 year crews. For any teams over 300lbs, you're pretty much screwed from the get go.

Not sure why so much aversion from HCA guys to the suggestion that Hobie consider adding a modern, fun, one-design spin class, especially when one doesn't currently exist, and when Hobie already produces a boat that is potentially a decent fit.

I race the Hobie 18 and have done so for over twenty years. I'll continue to until our fleet eventually dwindles away to nothing. A modern spin class based around the same criteria as the Hobie 18 is appealing to me. This isn't about having the next diamond. It's about racing on a boat that was designed during this century that will offer fun, competitive, one-design spinnaker racing for several decades without requiring constant costly upgrades. Obviously the class association would have to get behind this, and it doesn't look like that is currently the case, so just keep pushing the Hobie 16.

sm


Last edited by srm on Thu Nov 08, 2012 5:40 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Top
 Profile  
 
Display posts from previous:  Sort by  
Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 45 posts ]  Go to page Previous  1, 2, 3  Next

All times are UTC - 8 hours [ DST ]


Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 5 guests


You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum

Search for:
Jump to:  
Powered by phpBB® Forum Software © phpBB Group