Hobie Cat Forums

It is currently Fri Jul 25, 2014 1:52 pm

All times are UTC - 8 hours [ DST ]




Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 182 posts ]  Go to page Previous  1 ... 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, 11 ... 13  Next
Author Message
PostPosted: Wed Nov 28, 2012 10:30 am 
Offline
Site Rank - Old Salt

Joined: Mon May 09, 2005 10:25 am
Posts: 2518
Location: Jersey Shore
Matt, I'm sure you have much more exposure to the kayak end of things than anyone on this forum. Do you get the impression from any number of people from the kayak group that there is interest in racing or in catamaran sailing? I personally haven't heard of any instances where the sail-kaykers have expressed interest in joining in with the catamaran racing crowd. Is this something that Hobie Cat and/or the HCA is looking to persue (including kayak racing classes at HCA events)?

If there is interest from both sides in merging, then I could see the potential benefit. At this point, I personally haven't seen that interest, which makes me continue to question the value of including kayaks in the discussion about a new one-design class.

sm


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Wed Nov 28, 2012 10:37 am 
Offline
Site Admin

Joined: Tue May 27, 2003 12:44 pm
Posts: 8899
Location: Oceanside, California
Yes, we have... as noted by a few here... seen Hobie kayakers express interest in both cats and in racing. It may to take years for these new sailors to develop interest in bigger and faster sailboats. As I noted... We have been developing interest in cats for over 40 years.

I don't think merging kayaks into the Hobie Catamaran Class is going to happen. I believe they are a separate World and we can cater to both interests.

I'll change the title of this discussion... to New Hobie Catamaran "One Design" Discussion to make it more clear as to it's focus.

_________________
Matt Miller
Director of Parts and Accessory Sales
Hobie Cat USA


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Wed Nov 28, 2012 11:29 am 
Offline
Site Rank - Admiral

Joined: Mon Oct 25, 2010 2:48 pm
Posts: 287
Here is my wish list: Make an affordable Hobie A-CLASS CATAMARAN.

See link:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Uacqj57HswM

https://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=p ... 7Z6YFUXvz4


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Wed Nov 28, 2012 12:50 pm 
Offline
Site Rank - Old Salt

Joined: Mon Sep 20, 2004 12:36 pm
Posts: 758
Location: Tri-Cities, WA
Creative - throw on some optional wings, optional Jib, optional Hooter and I'm on board. :wink: NOW the hard part - put it in a package for $15K. :o


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Wed Nov 28, 2012 1:16 pm 
Offline
Site Rank - Old Salt

Joined: Mon May 09, 2005 10:25 am
Posts: 2518
Location: Jersey Shore
... and you guys continue to miss the point.
Optional hooter, optional jib, optional wings, high-tech A-Class... all neat stuff yet has no business in a ONE DESIGN class. You start talking about optional components or boats that belong to box rule or formula classes and the whole one-design concept vanishes.

sm


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Wed Nov 28, 2012 1:51 pm 
Offline
Site Rank - Old Salt

Joined: Mon Sep 20, 2004 12:36 pm
Posts: 758
Location: Tri-Cities, WA
SRM - Good point. I don't race much, 1 regatta a year and with Portsmouth numbers. My point is that you can make a one design and still have options for sailors who do not race. Similiar to the H17 SE and H17Sport. As you know I'm a H17Sport sailor who likes to sail fast and would not care to convert it to a slower SE (ooh, I'm gonna take a hit for that statement). From a marketing point of view, I should think Hobie would like to appeal to both racers and non-racers alike. :idea:


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Wed Nov 28, 2012 1:53 pm 
Offline
Site Rank - Admiral

Joined: Mon Oct 25, 2010 2:48 pm
Posts: 287
srm wrote:
... and you guys continue to miss the point.
Optional hooter, optional jib, optional wings, high-tech A-Class... all neat stuff yet has no business in a ONE DESIGN class. You start talking about optional components or boats that belong to box rule or formula classes and the whole one-design concept vanishes.

sm

I completely agree. No optional hooter, optional jib, optional wings, etc... Make a ONE DESIGN class cat similar to the A-Class but make it simple, fast & affordable.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Wed Nov 28, 2012 2:23 pm 
Offline
Site Rank - Old Salt

Joined: Mon Sep 20, 2004 12:36 pm
Posts: 758
Location: Tri-Cities, WA
I don't get the resistance to options. :? I LOVE options. Just because they are there, doesn't mean you have to get them, but they are available for those that do. :wink:


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Wed Nov 28, 2012 2:44 pm 
Offline
Site Rank - Admiral

Joined: Mon Oct 25, 2010 2:48 pm
Posts: 287
fastcat wrote:
I don't get the resistance to options. :? I LOVE options. Just because they are there, doesn't mean you have to get them, but they are available for those that do. :wink:


I just think it needs to be simplified, simplified, simplified so it easy to rig, easy to sail solo & fast as hell, but most of all affordable.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Wed Nov 28, 2012 2:53 pm 
Offline
Site Rank - Captain

Joined: Mon Jun 13, 2011 3:45 pm
Posts: 133
Location: Saratoga Springs, NY
fastcat wrote:
I don't get the resistance to options. :? I LOVE options. Just because they are there, doesn't mean you have to get them, but they are available for those that do. :wink:


In the past, options/variations have apparently lead to the death of the "base" class. For example, the introduction of the 18 Magnum and 18SX splintered the 18 class and accelerated its demise, or so I've been told. There needs to be just one racing configuration for the new boat

Personally, I think having a few "options" for recreational use is a great thing. For example, wings: don't make them class legal for racing, but having a set of easily removed wings would go a long way in making the boat appeal more to the recreational sailor. If this boat is going to be successful, it needs to appeal to the recreational sailors (like the H14/H16/H17/H18) instead of just the racers (like the FX1/Wildcat).

However, I think no matter what the base boat needs to be competitive out of the box - that means that any "optional" parts can't be used while racing, and any options are easily removed.

My personal opinion is that this needs to be a much more durable boat than the Fx1/Wildcat/A-class. If I was buying a new boat, I would want one that I could drag up onto the beach at the end of the day without worrying about damaging eggshell hulls. As for sails, maybe a main/spinnaker configuration, sort of an updated H17? I think the doublehanded market is clogged up, with the H16 and the F18, but I feel like there's room for a boat that's faster/more advanced than the wave, but below the A-class.

_________________
1990 Hobie 18SX #2077


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Wed Nov 28, 2012 3:01 pm 
Offline
Site Rank - Admiral

Joined: Mon Oct 25, 2010 2:48 pm
Posts: 287
Quote:
I feel like there's room for a boat that's faster/more advanced than the wave, but below the A-class.

Exactly!!! You're absolutely right.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Wed Nov 28, 2012 4:52 pm 
Offline
Site Rank - Old Salt

Joined: Mon May 09, 2005 10:25 am
Posts: 2518
Location: Jersey Shore
I think history has shown pretty clearly that the more "options" that are offered, the more it takes away from participation of the base class. Optional jibs, optional third sails, optional wings, rig variations all take away from people that "might" otherwise participate in the class.

The Hobie 17 Sport is a perfect example. Someone who bought this boat might have otherwise been interested in racing at a casual level- checking out a divisional or fleet regatta. They may have even bought the boat with the expectation that they could convert it to class legal if they wanted. But unfortunately it will cost that person close to a grand to get their boat class legal, so they figure forget it, I'm not going to spend $1000 to "down grade" my boat just so I can see if I like Hobie racing- I'll just go fun sailing or race portsmouth. And so the class potentially loses a member.

Options are a slippery slope. On one hand, the more options offered, the greater the mass appeal and the more people are likely to buy the boat. On the other hand, the more options, the more the one-design class becomes diluted.

sm


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Wed Nov 28, 2012 6:04 pm 
Offline
Site Rank - Old Salt

Joined: Sat Feb 24, 2007 8:45 pm
Posts: 1661
Location: Northfield Minnesota
I think the days of one design are well behind us. Box rules have taken the main stage in beachcat sailing. It allows a class to change, to grow, and to adapt to technology and the market.


and the "arms race" that so many fear is very good for any class. The top sailors want the shiniest new toy, and that puts used boats on the market for those who don't want to drop $25k+ on a new boat.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Wed Nov 28, 2012 7:22 pm 
Offline
Site Rank - Old Salt

Joined: Wed Aug 10, 2011 6:28 pm
Posts: 320
Location: Raleigh, North Carolina
Karl Brogger wrote:
I think the days of one design are well behind us. Box rules have taken the main stage in beachcat sailing. It allows a class to change, to grow, and to adapt to technology and the market.


and the "arms race" that so many fear is very good for any class. The top sailors want the shiniest new toy, and that puts used boats on the market for those who don't want to drop $25k+ on a new boat.



I'm not sure I agree. There's a bunch of us out there perfectly happy to race H16s because it's relatively affordable and the class rules keep it that way. I can't drop $25-35K on a new ride anytime soon, but I'd love to have a more modern racer to replace my old 16 if it's in the same ballpark. If everyone needed a tricked out Formula/ A-Class boat to get started cat sailing, I'm afraid the sport will be extinct in another decade. [at least in the US]

I can go to most Multi-hull regattas and count on racing against a handful of Hobie 16's. The Wave class seems to be pretty healthy as well. I would love to see a boat that could pull the H16/17/18 folks into a unified *affordable* performance class that was focused on the principals and fun of sailing vs. out-spending your competitors.

From what I can tell, the "Arms Race" folks are so busy splintering a small field of serious cat sailors with new designs, the Alter cup can't even agree on a format or get a half dozen of the same boats to show up. I'm not sure if that "Main Stage" is ultimately helping the sport.

_________________
Garrett
94' H16 - 114050
www.HobieFleet97.org
Image


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Wed Nov 28, 2012 8:33 pm 
Offline
Site Rank - Admiral

Joined: Mon Oct 25, 2010 2:48 pm
Posts: 287
Quote:
I'm not sure I agree. There's a bunch of us out there perfectly happy to race H16s because it's relatively affordable and the class rules keep it that way. I can't drop $25-35K on a new ride anytime soon, but I'd love to have a more modern racer to replace my old 16 if it's in the same ballpark. If everyone needed a tricked out Formula/ A-Class boat to get started cat sailing, I'm afraid the sport will be extinct in another decade. [at least in the US]

I can go to most Multi-hull regattas and count on racing against a handful of Hobie 16's. The Wave class seems to be pretty healthy as well. I would love to see a boat that could pull the H16/17/18 folks into a unified *affordable* performance class that was focused on the principals and fun of sailing vs. out-spending your competitors.

From what I can tell, the "Arms Race" folks are so busy splintering a small field of serious cat sailors with new designs, the Alter cup can't even agree on a format or get a half dozen of the same boats to show up. I'm not sure if that "Main Stage" is ultimately helping the sport.

Exactly!!! We need a new affordable cat that is in-between a Hobie Wave & an A-class cat.


Top
 Profile  
 
Display posts from previous:  Sort by  
Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 182 posts ]  Go to page Previous  1 ... 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, 11 ... 13  Next

All times are UTC - 8 hours [ DST ]


Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 3 guests


You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum

Search for:
Jump to:  
Powered by phpBB® Forum Software © phpBB Group