Hobie Cat Forums

It is currently Fri Nov 28, 2014 12:30 am

All times are UTC - 8 hours [ DST ]




Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 182 posts ]  Go to page Previous  1 ... 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, 11, 12, 13  Next
Author Message
PostPosted: Wed Nov 28, 2012 9:31 pm 
Offline
Site Rank - Admiral

Joined: Mon Sep 12, 2011 7:28 pm
Posts: 235
Location: BC, Canada
Creative wrote:
Exactly!!! We need a new affordable cat that is in-between a Hobie Wave & an A-class cat.

I agree with affordable. As much as I am big A-cat fun, what Matt suggests seems much more practical and seems much in line with Hobie philosophy
mmiller wrote:
My choice for something on that end would be 17-18 feet with a furling third sail. Centerboards or Getaway-like keels.

The issue with single handlers is the competition from windsurfers and kite-boarders. If I want to go fast, I have options with much smaller footprint and easier price tag.

_________________
H17
Image


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Wed Nov 28, 2012 10:09 pm 
Offline
Site Rank - Old Salt

Joined: Sun Mar 16, 2008 10:46 pm
Posts: 468
Frankly, I think all the discussion about one design is kind of silly.

Because there's one reason why Hobie Europe's sales sagged and sales of the Wave, Getaway, and continued sales of the H16 and especially the sales of sailing kayaks are strong. It's just ease of rigging.

Because time and money aren't what they used to be, setup and take down of the rig has to be fast. The cats mentioned above do relatively fast rigging.

I watch bass boaters launch and those guys whip in the parking lot, back the boat down the ramp, park the car, hop in, and go. It takes 45 minutes to rig the FX and then the local cat launching locations stink compared to power boat launch locations.

The focus has got to be on innovations in rigging and launching first no matter what cat. So my *bold* prediction is that if the focus is not there, you will be seeing more problems.

My list includes easier mast stepping, a quick foldup tripod for mast support before stepping, more foolproof sail raising, quicker mainsheet connections to booms, another mast flotation option, better anchoring options, and more...

The H16, Wave, Getaway, and kayaks offer solutions to some of these problems. And don't kid yourself, I think Hobie knows that these solutions are part of the reason that these cats sell so well.

So... disagree with me :) , but put your brains to work and innovate some improvements at the same time, please.


Last edited by JJ on Tue Dec 10, 2013 9:12 pm, edited 2 times in total.

Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Thu Nov 29, 2012 6:31 am 
Offline
Site Rank - Old Salt

Joined: Mon Oct 25, 2010 2:48 pm
Posts: 326
jackB wrote:
Creative wrote:
Exactly!!! We need a new affordable cat that is in-between a Hobie Wave & an A-class cat.

I agree with affordable. As much as I am big A-cat fun, what Matt suggests seems much more practical and seems much in line with Hobie philosophy
mmiller wrote:
My choice for something on that end would be 17-18 feet with a furling third sail. Centerboards or Getaway-like keels.

The issue with single handlers is the competition from windsurfers and kite-boarders. If I want to go fast, I have options with much smaller footprint and easier price tag.

You can NOT compare windsurfing and kite-boarding to sailing a cat. I have friends that do all three & the experience is completely different for each.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Thu Nov 29, 2012 7:25 am 
Offline
Site Rank - Old Salt

Joined: Sat Feb 24, 2007 8:45 pm
Posts: 1665
Location: Northfield Minnesota
GD_NC wrote:
From what I can tell, the "Arms Race" folks are so busy splintering a small field of serious cat sailors with new designs, the Alter cup can't even agree on a format or get a half dozen of the same boats to show up. I'm not sure if that "Main Stage" is ultimately helping the sport.


What was the odd boat? It was all on F16's I thought?

Nobody stepped up to supply boats for this years Alter Cup, so it was a byob event. It was also placed really close to F16 Nationals, and that same weekend was Catacup in St Barths. Just bad luck for the Alter Cup. I would've liked to have attended, but work is ballistic right now and I just couldn't take anymore time off.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Thu Nov 29, 2012 1:47 pm 
Offline
Site Rank - Old Salt

Joined: Mon Sep 20, 2004 12:36 pm
Posts: 758
Location: Tri-Cities, WA
I'm not so sure one design is the way to go. How big a driver is one design racing to over all sales? It might be a backbone, or not. Without options to make a one design more attractive to non-racers, will it produce enough sales to be marketable?


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Thu Nov 29, 2012 6:16 pm 
Offline
Site Rank - Old Salt

Joined: Sat Feb 24, 2007 8:45 pm
Posts: 1665
Location: Northfield Minnesota
Its simple, nobody likes hanging their butt out buying the first of something, then hoping their buddies buy into it as well. But, if its a new model and you've got other's to play with right off the bat, its much easier. Some designs are flops, most are not. What was the Gel-Tek a few years ago that was a total turd and everybody was pissed at Ashby about? That's a good example of a turd and also an example of how uncommon it is.

The H16 will be strong for a long time, its success as a one design is very rare though, especially in the beach cat sailing world. We are far too few in number to sustain much one design activity.


American society is very different from what it was thirty years ago. Its instant gratification, its flashy, it almost requires A.D.D. to function. Sailing in almost any form has next to none of that. I think a better question is why does beachcat sailing do so well in Europe? What examples can be gleaned from Europeans to bring it about here again?


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Thu Nov 29, 2012 7:54 pm 
Offline
Site Rank - Admiral

Joined: Mon Sep 12, 2011 7:28 pm
Posts: 235
Location: BC, Canada
Creative wrote:
You can NOT compare windsurfing and kite-boarding to sailing a cat. I have friends that do all three & the experience is completely different for each.


One could argue, eating french fries is a very different experience than cheese burgers, but they both are fast food, and equally bad for you.... :wink:

The point I was trying to make -- a two-up cat have a greater chance of success then a single-handler. One factor; you can't go windsurfing with a crew. This is what clearly differentiates cat sailing from the other two sports.

Creative wrote:
We need a new affordable cat that is in-between a Hobie Wave & an A-class cat.

That would be H17 -- check the Portsmouth Numbers for the 3 cats

Wave 92.1
H17 74.0
A-cat 64.5

I would bet, if you sale your Wave, you can buy a very decent H17 for the money you make on the sale. :idea:

_________________
H17
Image


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Fri Nov 30, 2012 1:07 am 
Offline
Site Rank - Old Salt

Joined: Wed Jul 21, 2004 7:46 pm
Posts: 1468
Location: Santa Cruz
Karl Brogger wrote:
[

Nobody stepped up to supply boats for this years Alter Cup, so it was a byob event.


Wait a second here Mr. Brogger! Rumor has it that a company did in fact offer to supply boats this year. Two different models from what I heard...

_________________
Sail Revolution
Join us on our new FB Page!


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Fri Nov 30, 2012 2:07 am 
Offline
Site Rank - Old Salt

Joined: Sat Feb 24, 2007 8:45 pm
Posts: 1665
Location: Northfield Minnesota
Come to think of it, what the hell was the reason? There was some serious chain jerking going on. I remember that.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Fri Nov 30, 2012 9:59 am 
Offline
Site Rank - Admiral

Joined: Mon Oct 29, 2007 9:08 am
Posts: 209
Location: St. Charles, IL
Looking at the Hobie lineup I see a potential for some creative thinking and marketing of new boats.

Clearly the leading sellers are the kaysks, the AI & TI, and the plastic cats. I've tried out the AI and TI, own a wave and an H18. There's some room in there for something that's versatile like the TI, but lots faster yet easy to rig. One could go about making this versatile boat catlike by incorporating some of the cuilding ideas from the dude over at the Watertribe site that did a dual Mirage drive cat, or you could look to the success of the Weta and add some provision for the mirage drive in a boat that has some better speed potential than the TI.

I really don't want to strap an outboard on a cat, but one of my sailing areas is Sanibel Island. No mast up beach storage (another reason beach cat sailing in the US is fading), so trailering is my only option. 20+ minute drive time, setup time at the ramp, and pray the wind direction is favorable to get out of that corner between the causeway and the curving beach near Point Ybel. Or I can just go 3 minutes down the road to the bay side, but would need to motor or paddle a cat through the mangroves to get to some sailing areas--and the tides are fierce in the passes.

The Mirage drives are magic! But coming from even a Wave, the AI and TI are slow. Hobie has maxed out what they can do with a freestanding rig in a shallow hull, so we're not likely to see anything like Weta performance.

While I agree that there's room for another cat in Hobie's lineup, I think the reason to own a cat or tri could be expanded by the ability to use on a glassy day trolling a line, or in my case back to the launching ramp.

If it's a cat, how about incorporating a pair of Mirage drives that could plug into the hulls with footwells. Unconventional? Sure, but the dagger could maybe use the same slot with some creative engineering--or just have a plug for the well with a place to securely stasy them.

If it's a tri, there's room out there for another boat that fits between the TI and the Weta or W17 (which is too big to use the drives I bet).

Regardless of what could come out of the discussion, there could be a unique opportunity to grab some of the Weta craze with a bigger platform or introduce the world to a fast cat that could also be a fun boat on windless days.

Either of these boat would require trailering although I saw a cool post on small trimarans this week about a pretty slick cartoppable tri
Image
The bazooka--it's only 12' but I'm thinking of the 16'-17' version. I sailed on the Raptor 16, a sit on top single outrigger version with a similar roller furling sail as the AI TI. I think that's a must if you are going for a boat that's a cartopper, but not if it's a trailer boat. A longer Weta style boat with a mirage drive or two or a cat. There's nothing really on the market like it right now & maybe for good reason, but then again?

It's more of a cartopper and it's unstayed. However, the Mirage drive is too cool not to use in a faster boat, stayed or not.http://smalltrimarans.com/blog/?p=8913

_________________
Dan St. Gean
'82 H 18
'96 H Wave


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Fri Nov 30, 2012 10:23 am 
Offline
Site Rank - Old Salt

Joined: Mon Oct 25, 2010 2:48 pm
Posts: 326
jackB wrote:
Creative wrote:
You can NOT compare windsurfing and kite-boarding to sailing a cat. I have friends that do all three & the experience is completely different for each.


One could argue, eating french fries is a very different experience than cheese burgers, but they both are fast food, and equally bad for you.... :wink:

The point I was trying to make -- a two-up cat have a greater chance of success then a single-handler. One factor; you can't go windsurfing with a crew. This is what clearly differentiates cat sailing from the other two sports.

Creative wrote:
We need a new affordable cat that is in-between a Hobie Wave & an A-class cat.

That would be H17 -- check the Portsmouth Numbers for the 3 cats

Wave 92.1
H17 74.0
A-cat 64.5

I would bet, if you sale your Wave, you can buy a very decent H17 for the money you make on the sale. :idea:


#1. You can not have a good cheese burger with out fries. :lol:
#2. The Hobie 16 takes care of the "two-up cat"
#3. The Hobie 17 is NOT as simple a boat to rig like a Wave.

I would like to see a fast, affordable, simple to rig, solo boat. Most of my friends have stopped sailing the H16 or H18 because it's to much of a hassle to rig for a quick sail after work.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Fri Nov 30, 2012 10:32 am 
Offline
Site Rank - Admiral

Joined: Mon Oct 29, 2007 9:08 am
Posts: 209
Location: St. Charles, IL
Creative wrote:
I would like to see a fast, affordable, simple to rig, solo boat. Most of my friends have stopped sailing the H16 or H18 because it's to much of a hassle to rig for a quick sail after work.


Bam! I think you nailed it. 15 minutes is at the long end. My wife loves to sail, but hanging out with the kids while I rig the 18 is not too fun for her. The wave on the other hand is just fine--as long as I don't have to assemble it from scratch, which is more like 30 minutes.

_________________
Dan St. Gean
'82 H 18
'96 H Wave


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Fri Nov 30, 2012 4:27 pm 
Offline
Site Rank - Old Salt

Joined: Sat Feb 24, 2007 8:45 pm
Posts: 1665
Location: Northfield Minnesota
Creative wrote:
I would like to see a fast, affordable, simple to rig, solo boat.


How's the saying go? "You can have it cheap, quickly, or done well. Pick two of the three." or something along those lines. Honestly, what you are describing to a "T" is an older A-Cat. Put the stick up, push the sail up, done. (edit)- oops, forgot. You'll have to put a boom on. That pin can be a killer.....


Creative wrote:
Most of my friends have stopped sailing the H16 or H18 because it's to much of a hassle to rig for a quick sail after work.


They didn't stop because it was too much of a hassle. They quit because they weren't that interested. What's a H16 take a normal person to rig? Twenty minutes? (I say normal because, I have massive ocd and strip everything off my boats when I trailer them.)


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Fri Nov 30, 2012 5:45 pm 
Offline
Site Rank - Old Salt

Joined: Mon Oct 25, 2010 2:48 pm
Posts: 326
Karl Brogger wrote:
Creative wrote:
I would like to see a fast, affordable, simple to rig, solo boat.


How's the saying go? "You can have it cheap, quickly, or done well. Pick two of the three." or something along those lines. Honestly, what you are describing to a "T" is an older A-Cat. Put the stick up, push the sail up, done. (edit)- oops, forgot. You'll have to put a boom on. That pin can be a killer.....


Creative wrote:
Most of my friends have stopped sailing the H16 or H18 because it's to much of a hassle to rig for a quick sail after work.


They didn't stop because it was too much of a hassle. They quit because they weren't that interested. What's a H16 take a normal person to rig? Twenty minutes? (I say normal because, I have massive ocd and strip everything off my boats when I trailer them.)

It's 2012 & boat technology has changed but Hobie has not for years & years.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Fri Nov 30, 2012 7:32 pm 
Offline
Site Rank - Admiral

Joined: Mon Sep 12, 2011 7:28 pm
Posts: 235
Location: BC, Canada
Creative wrote:
#1. You can not have a good cheese burger with out fries. :lol:

Keep eating these cheese burgers with fries and all you got to choose from is a Getaway :lol:

Creative wrote:
#2. The Hobie 16 takes care of the "two-up cat"

More like: H16 takes care of "antique-2up cat"

Creative wrote:
#3. The Hobie 17 is NOT as simple a boat to rig like a Wave.
Your affordable (i.e. heavier) A-cat is likely to be closer to H17 than Wave for rigging. Longer mast, boom, dagger boards, longer overall boat length, all will add up to your rigging time.

_________________
H17
Image


Top
 Profile  
 
Display posts from previous:  Sort by  
Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 182 posts ]  Go to page Previous  1 ... 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, 11, 12, 13  Next

All times are UTC - 8 hours [ DST ]


Who is online

Users browsing this forum: Google [Bot] and 2 guests


You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum

Search for:
Jump to:  
Powered by phpBB® Forum Software © phpBB Group