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PostPosted: Thu Dec 13, 2012 3:01 pm 
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fusioneng wrote:
Hi it's me again:
I have as much interest as everyone else in Hobies next generation cat design. However I tend to think outside of the box. Instead of re-hashing what is current on the market, I think as a group you could help Hobie concept and develop the next generation of cat. We all want the boat to be fast, easy and fast to setup, light weight, and a standardized design which could be classified as a one design (ie.. Laser, Weta, H16,etc), and most important inexpensive.
Why not think outside of the box and come up with suggestions on how to design and make such a boat, as well as a wish list of features you want Hobie to implement into the design.
As we all know layup fiberglass is a very labor intensive and time consuming process, Carbon fiber composites and kevlar is also very labor intensive (and way more expensive), and in addition the carbon fiber material itself is very expensive so you would want to use as little as possible. Actually roto-molding is a fairly expensive process as well, a lot of energy required to heat up those molds, and many of you are not fans of rotomolded boats.
If you want to develop a fast cat at half the weight of whats currently available, at a cost we all can afford I think we all need to think outside of the box.
For example how bout somebody develop a way to injection mold the hulls (vs layup fiberglass or rotomolding). I think it would be a pretty simple matter to design a hull with a carbon re-enforced film skin which is laid into the mold (to form the outermost hull), then close into an injection mold and mold in the insides and framework It's called IMD / IML molding, (Hobie already does this on their kayak and TI lines). Injection molding is the way the front and rear facia's are made on most of your cars (injection molding), some companies make the entire car body from these materials (ie... Saturn). The injection molded materials are way stronger than the rotomolded PE materials( stronger = lighter (less material needed)). So the weight would be half of what is currently out there. Better yet it only takes two minutes to mold the hull complete vs the hours it takes to rotomold, and days for layup fiberglass or Carbon composites (the molds are only slightly more expensive). Take the labor out and the costs go way down. With injection molding it would not be difficult to lay in a molded gf nylon keel strip, then overmold right over it (it's all pretty simple stuff).
The cross bar frames could be made from pulltrusions (yes you can pulltrude curved shapes), vs machined metals or composite (much stronger,lighter, and way cheaper).
Instead of machined or composite carbon masts, which are both very labor intensive and expensive to produce. Why doesn't one of you develop a way to produce a weaved carbon pulltrusion (carbon/kevlar/glass fibers are twisted/weaved while being pulled through the pulltrision mold process that can spit out a 25 ft mast in 15 minutes. (but doesn't cost $3000 dollars)
I am a huge fan of the mirage drive system, I don't think I could own a boat without one, why don't one of you think of a way to incorporate the mirage drive systems into something that would be usable on a cat ( I hate to paddle when the wind dies). Think outside the box, it has to be simple and add no weight or drag to the boat. This would be totally exclusive to Hobie (patents).
Sails, I think it's been pretty well proven that wing sails are in all of our futures, why can't one of you come up with a wing main sail design that is inexpensive, collapsible and super light weight (easily rigged and taken down). I'm working on one for my current TI, it's not rocket science and in my opinion would be the ultimate solution on a cat ( I'm not giving up my spinnaker though).
Foils- Why couldn't one of you develop a foil design for cats that is simple and automatic so you can reduce your wet area at higher speeds without adding drag or weight at lower speeds (as part of the basic hull design), admittedly this would be a pretty tall order. I have a feeling in ten years this will be standard on all cat hulls, one of you just needs to invent it.
If we all want super fast lightweight cat that is inexpensive (under $7000), then the above is just some of the challenges that need to be overcome, I'm pretty sure the readers of this thread have an accumulated thousand years of experience and advanced sailing knowledge (and all want to go as fast as I do). Why not help Hobie define the next generation.
I don't pretend to be an expert in any of these areas, I'm just throwing ideas out there for everyone to think about (you guys are the experts). I'm hopin you get this all worked out so I can buy my next boat,,,,,, soon. Please hurry..
Bob

I think that takes care of that. The question now is can Hobie make it happen?


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PostPosted: Thu Dec 13, 2012 4:56 pm 
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I thought that was a great post on a variety of ideas.

One thing I would like to point out about materials, however, is that carbon fiber isn't at all expensive. Not even remotely. What makes carbon fiber items expensive is the labor involved in the process of using it to create these items.

Off the topic which the originator of this post intended (sorry) I have come to believe that the Mirage Drive is such a unique and valuable piece of gear that any boat that can be designed to incorporate it would have a leg up on any boat that doesn't offer it. As I've come to love the Tandem Island, I'm looking for another sailboat. Not a yacht, but just something bigger and faster. The next step up the ladder I guess. I had a chance to buy a Windrider, which is a pretty neat boat in and of itself, but the lack of a Mirage Drive held me back. The whole concept of being able to motivate without a motor, when the wind isn't up, is appealing to me.

Of course, the Mirage Drive isn't likely to find a place on any boat intended for racing... or maybe it could. This would be a complete paradigm shift, of course, for a class of racing boats to incorporate such a drive system that would allow sailors to power through a tack.

Then again, I may have had one too many beers this evening and therefore it would be best to disregard this post.


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PostPosted: Sat Dec 15, 2012 4:29 pm 
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Tom Kirkman wrote:
I thought that was a great post on a variety of ideas.

One thing I would like to point out about materials, however, is that carbon fiber isn't at all expensive. Not even remotely. What makes carbon fiber items expensive is the labor involved in the process of using it to create these items.

Off the topic which the originator of this post intended (sorry) I have come to believe that the Mirage Drive is such a unique and valuable piece of gear that any boat that can be designed to incorporate it would have a leg up on any boat that doesn't offer it. As I've come to love the Tandem Island, I'm looking for another sailboat. Not a yacht, but just something bigger and faster. The next step up the ladder I guess. I had a chance to buy a Windrider, which is a pretty neat boat in and of itself, but the lack of a Mirage Drive held me back. The whole concept of being able to motivate without a motor, when the wind isn't up, is appealing to me.

Of course, the Mirage Drive isn't likely to find a place on any boat intended for racing... or maybe it could. This would be a complete paradigm shift, of course, for a class of racing boats to incorporate such a drive system that would allow sailors to power through a tack.

Then again, I may have had one too many beers this evening and therefore it would be best to disregard this post.

Too many beers!


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PostPosted: Sat Dec 15, 2012 5:20 pm 
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Very likely, yes.


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PostPosted: Sun Jan 13, 2013 7:54 am 
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Aftermarket parts for H 16.....carbon, Ti , Kev, ...???


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PostPosted: Tue Jan 15, 2013 11:21 am 
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I have always wondered what a no limits on material H16 would be like. You could easily get it under 200#, and build it fairly stiff.


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PostPosted: Thu Jan 17, 2013 6:04 am 
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Karl Brogger wrote:
I have always wondered what a no limits on material H16 would be like. You could easily get it under 200#, and build it fairly stiff.


An all carbon Hobie 16 would be awesome! Fast!

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1983 H14 Turbo...


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PostPosted: Fri Jan 18, 2013 5:06 am 
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ftlauderdale16 wrote:
Karl Brogger wrote:
I have always wondered what a no limits on material H16 would be like. You could easily get it under 200#, and build it fairly stiff.


An all carbon Hobie 16 would be awesome! Fast!



But it still wouldn't tack! :mrgreen:

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PostPosted: Fri Jan 18, 2013 12:30 pm 
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To give you and ideal A Yamaha Superjet (Standup Jetski) hull weighs approx 115 lbs with the hull and the hood. There are several companies building Carbon or Carbon Kevlar hulls that weigh in at less then 50 lbs.

So, Take whatever the H16 hulls alone weigh and cut that weight in half.


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PostPosted: Fri Jan 18, 2013 7:04 pm 
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sxrracer wrote:
To give you and ideal A Yamaha Superjet (Standup Jetski) hull weighs approx 115 lbs with the hull and the hood. There are several companies building Carbon or Carbon Kevlar hulls that weigh in at less then 50 lbs.

So, Take whatever the H16 hulls alone weigh and cut that weight in half.

It's not quite that simple.

A substantial portion of a Hobie 16's hull weight is resin and foam. There really isn't that much weight in glass. Just replacing it with carbon cloth isn't going to save much weight, but you will have a wicked stiff boat.

Engineering a new laminate structure would eliminate some of the foam weight, but you're still relying on the shear strength of the polyester resin to keep everything stuck together. Epoxy would help solve that problem.

A Hobie 16 hull weighs about 70 lbs. You might get 20-25 lbs off it, but you're more than doubling the cost by going to carbon / epoxy.


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PostPosted: Sat Jan 19, 2013 5:48 pm 
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Pre-preg, carbon, nomex, autoclaved. Bam! Foam is
for saving money.

Sxracer, time to get an fx1, bit lighter for ya.


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PostPosted: Tue Jan 22, 2013 5:58 am 
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MBounds wrote:
A Hobie 16 hull weighs about 70 lbs. You might get 20-25 lbs off it, but you're more than doubling the cost by going to carbon / epoxy.


I guess to get real weight savings, our dream 16 would have to be all carbon... Carbon hulls, mast and cross bars. It certainly would look bad ass! :D

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PostPosted: Tue Sep 03, 2013 3:56 pm 
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Hobie T2
http://www.hobiecat.com/sail/t2/


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PostPosted: Tue Sep 03, 2013 5:47 pm 
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Karl Brogger wrote:
Pre-preg, carbon, nomex, autoclaved. Bam! Foam is
for saving money.

Sxracer, time to get an fx1, bit lighter for ya.

Karl, I never saw this response. You referring to the Yamaha Fx1? Can't stand them!!! When they came out they were great. Friend had one. But once we got Superjets. All bets were off.


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PostPosted: Tue Sep 03, 2013 6:22 pm 
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mmiller wrote:
We have in-house engineering and production capability that Hobie Cat Europe did not have when designing the Tattoo. We need to review design and manufacturing standards on any new products since we now have control over it in Europe.


Thank you for sharing this insight, Matt! I am just reading this thread now, as the Hobie T2 has been announced for US availability in November 2013.

Now that the cat (Hobie T2) is out of the bag, it would be cool to hear how Hobie US will be able to improve upon HCE's original Tatoo design.

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Sailing vintage Hobie Cats in West Africa.


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