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 Post subject: Hobie 16 mast rake
PostPosted: Thu Nov 22, 2012 12:18 am 
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Joined: Thu Apr 26, 2012 5:24 pm
Posts: 27
Hello all,
I have an older (1977) Hobie 16 and really would like to be a more competitive racer. I am 15 and quite light, so is my crew. I am hoping to get more mast rake, to make the boat faster and less likely to pitch pole. I have already upgraded my old 6:1 seaway blocks to low profile block following this modification: http://www.catsail.com/archives/v2-i8/tip57.htm I have purchased a new style mast base. I have an old style all aluminum mast. I have the original rudders and sails.

My question is what other modifications are essential to getting more mast rake (with details please) and to what extend is it possible on a boat this old.

Thank you so much in advance!

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2011 Hobie 16 from West Coast Sailing


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 Post subject: Re: Hobie 16 mast rake
PostPosted: Thu Nov 22, 2012 12:03 pm 
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Joined: Sat Oct 29, 2011 4:27 pm
Posts: 556
Location: Central Oregon
You will run out of room to sheet your jib in. Few ways to lower the blocks there. And the newer jibs are cut different too I think.

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1980 H16
1997 Wave


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 Post subject: Re: Hobie 16 mast rake
PostPosted: Thu Nov 22, 2012 7:35 pm 
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Joined: Mon Sep 17, 2012 6:56 pm
Posts: 58
Location: Durham NC
I'm no expert but check out this article and follow all the links to the other suggestions.
[url]
http://home1.gte.net/res07lm8/hobie/arc ... ature2.htm[/url]

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1984 Hobie 16


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 Post subject: Re: Hobie 16 mast rake
PostPosted: Fri Nov 23, 2012 6:14 am 
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Joined: Mon Jul 14, 2003 7:11 pm
Posts: 4623
Location: Detroit, MI
heelcat wrote:
I'm no expert but check out this article and follow all the links to the other suggestions.
http://home1.gte.net/res07lm8/hobie/arc ... ature2.htm

The problem with that article is that it's over 10 years old and some of the information is wrong. For example, replacing 16 shrouds with 17 shrouds will get you nothing - they're the same length now.

You stated:
jpedsailing wrote:
I have an older (1977) Hobie 16 and really would like to be a more competitive racer.
Unfortunately, a 1977 boat will never be a competitive racer. Rather than spending $ on an old boat, save it towards a new(er) one - at least 1996 or newer.

80% of becoming a better racer is NOT associated with spending $ on the boat - it's learning how to handle the boat, reading the wind and how to deal with other competitors on the race course.

My advice - do what you can with what you've got - then go sailing. Put $100 (or more) in the bank every month. In two or three years, you'll be ready to step up to a newer boat - and you'll have the skills to take advantage of the improvements over your 1977 boat.


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 Post subject: Re: Hobie 16 mast rake
PostPosted: Fri Nov 23, 2012 12:34 pm 
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Joined: Sat Oct 29, 2011 4:27 pm
Posts: 556
Location: Central Oregon
Quote:
Unfortunately, a 1977 boat will never be a competitive racer. Rather than spending $ on an old boat, save it towards a new(er) one - at least 1996 or newer.

80% of becoming a better racer is NOT associated with spending $ on the boat - it's learning how to handle the boat, reading the wind and how to deal with other competitors on the race course.



Sort of a contradiction there isn't it? I have never raced before. But I would think unless your racing some serious hotshots then you have a pretty good chance of at least not getting last place? Like you said it is 80% skipper/20% the boat. I would think you could put the best 16 sailor on an old clapped out boat and he would still smoke everyone?

Another hobby of mine is dirtbiking. Same deal there. Everyone thinks you need the latest greatest thing out there to be fast....when really all you need to do is ride what you have A LOT.

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1980 H16
1997 Wave


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 Post subject: Re: Hobie 16 mast rake
PostPosted: Fri Nov 23, 2012 2:25 pm 
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Joined: Thu Apr 26, 2012 5:24 pm
Posts: 27
Thanks everyone for all the great advice, I really love these forums. I will take it all into consideration and start saving and sailing as soon as winter in over. Thanks so much again.

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2011 Hobie 16 from West Coast Sailing


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 Post subject: Re: Hobie 16 mast rake
PostPosted: Fri Nov 23, 2012 3:34 pm 
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hobiesrock wrote:
I would think you could put the best 16 sailor on an old clapped out boat and he would still smoke everyone?
Not quite. Even Enrique Figueroa wouldn't be able to take a 1977 boat and make it compete on a level with a boat that's less than 10 years old.

Here's what you've got going against you:
- the boat is heavier by at least 20 lbs (and probably a lot more)
- you need EPO or equivalent rudders
- 36 year old sails vs. 10 year old sails
- you can't possibly match the mast rake without spending thousands (new jib / jib sheet system, upgraded mast step, new rear crossbar w/integrated track, new mainsheet system - the list goes on).

You could spend thousands of dollars on "perfume" and underneath it's still a 1977 boat.

If you're going to spend money on a boat that old, spend it on things that make it work better - new lines that move through the blocks smoothly, rudder cams that work reliably and don't have slop, no slop in the rudder system, etc.

Then go out and sail it into the ground. Learn how to tack in 10 seconds or less. Learn how to judge laylines. Learn how to work waves downwind. Learn how to make the boat stay in one spot for a minute, then be able to accelerate out in 5 seconds (starting drill). Learn how to jibe without losing much speed and without the main crashing over to the other side.

Develop a feel for the wind so you can detect wind shifts with your eyes closed. Learn how to read puffs on the water.

Go to regattas and ask for help. Most old farts (like myself) are more than willing to help get the kids up to speed. When you go to regattas, you'll also get hooked into the unadvertised boat sales - most top sailors get new boats every three or four years, so you can pick up a nearly new boat for a great price.

I started racing when I was jpedsailing's age. I brought two of my friends because we were so light. It's a great age to get involved.


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 Post subject: Re: Hobie 16 mast rake
PostPosted: Fri Nov 23, 2012 3:38 pm 
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Joined: Sat Oct 29, 2011 4:27 pm
Posts: 556
Location: Central Oregon
Quote:
Then go out and sail it into the ground. Learn how to tack in 10 seconds or less. Learn how to judge laylines. Learn how to work waves downwind. Learn how to make the boat stay in one spot for a minute, then be able to accelerate out in 5 seconds (starting drill). Learn how to jibe without losing much speed and without the main crashing over to the other side.

Develop a feel for the wind so you can detect wind shifts with your eyes closed. Learn how to read puffs on the water.

Go to regattas and ask for help. Most old farts (like myself) are more than willing to help get the kids up to speed. When you go to regattas, you'll also get hooked into the unadvertised boat sales - most top sailors get new boats every three or four years, so you can pick up a nearly new boat for a great price.


Good stuff!! Was not at all trying to doubt you just didn't want a new young sailor to get discouraged! I am looking forward to entering a couple races next season on my outdated 1980 H16!!!

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1980 H16
1997 Wave


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 Post subject: Re: Hobie 16 mast rake
PostPosted: Sun Nov 25, 2012 5:10 pm 
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Joined: Sat Apr 16, 2011 11:53 am
Posts: 97
Location: Florida Panhandle
Hey jped, we sailed our first 4 months on a 1975 boat, all busted up, that finally sank and came apart right underneath us. Then sailed a year on our 1982 boat until it came apart as well. This year we bought a 2001 and sailed our first regatta with our old 1976 sails. It was the best time Sailing we ever had, all that time spent learning what little we learned on those old heavy boats really paid off. We didn't win, but we were competitive, we kept our sails trimmed, watch our weight distribution, watched the puffs and worked hard to do things right. Actually getting the opportunity to measure what you’re doing against other boats is unbelievably fun!
Go out and find some of the open regattas, don't worry about all the class legal races for the time being just go out to have fun. You'll have the best time you've ever had on your boat! I've watched guys literally drag boats out of the woods, across the beach behind trucks and rig them up. The last race we did I think my Girlfriend and I rigged up a quarter of the boats on the beach.
Great time with some great people!!!

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2001 Hobie 16, "Spirit of 76 sails" #18515
1999 Hobie 20, Sail #1005
1981 Hobie 18, Dead!
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 Post subject: Re: Hobie 16 mast rake
PostPosted: Fri Dec 07, 2012 5:03 pm 
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Joined: Mon Sep 24, 2012 3:00 pm
Posts: 72
As a life long sailer and former yacht racer, I can vouch for those stating that it is more the sailer than the sailboat. Having sailed dozens of large scale regattas in the Great Lakes, I have witnessed some pretty ugly boats with old blown out sails racing competitively. Furthermore, I have seen top racers excel in those boats yet flounder on better equiped ones as the rest of the crew is clueless. To get those extra few tenths of a knot of boatspeed, learn to use your telltales properly, make sure the hulls are smooth, weight distributed properly, and sails trimmed. Also learn to read the water and wind shifts in addition to gaining some tactical knowledge. Put that all together and while you might not win, at least you be there with the top guys. At that point, save your money for a newer boat and then you'll be king of the lake!


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 Post subject: Re: Hobie 16 mast rake
PostPosted: Sun Dec 16, 2012 8:59 am 
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Joined: Wed Feb 09, 2011 6:41 pm
Posts: 58
Location: Cape Coral FL
Matt,

What was the year that the hulls started to weigh less?

I'm asking because I have a 1995 boat, and that seems like the year a lot of changes started happening. But, did the reduced hull weight happen earlier?

My 1995 has comptip mast and integrated tracks in both crossbars. I've basically restored everything else. New Sails & tramp (double grommeted), New EPO2 Rudders, all new standing rigging including mast base, aussie hallyard, etc. I have even restored the pylon bolt holes and glued the boat together with epoxy like in the Hotline articles.

The boat is stiff and set-up just like new boats now, Basically, its a new boat except for the hulls, corner castings and mast.

I'm hoping that my hulls are not the older heavier version.

Thanks,


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 Post subject: Re: Hobie 16 mast rake
PostPosted: Sun Dec 16, 2012 9:44 am 
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coralreefer wrote:
What was the year that the hulls started to weigh less?
1984
However, just because your boat is post-1983, doesn't mean it weighs significantly less than boats made prior. I know that sounds weird, but here's what happened:
In 1983 (1984 model year) Hobie Cat started making the hulls lighter - and using a red glue to attach the hulls and decks together (the infamous "red glue seam"). However, the class rules hadn't been changed, so the boats had lead shot in the base of the pylons, sealed in with urethane foam. Some of these boats had an "H" stamped on the front pylon. These boats weighed 340# with the shot and ~320# without - when they were new.

The class rules were changed shortly thereafter to allow boats to weigh 320#. The lead shot went away. However, the boats were more fragile and there were problems with warranty claims, so the weights crept up again as it's cheaper to add glass and resin in production than fix boats after the fact.

By the late '80s, boats were heavy again. I owned an '89 that weighed 347#. It was a dog.

In the early '90s, the class and ISAF (since the Hobie 16 was/is an ISAF International Class) started clamoring for the boats to be made to their "class rule weight" - 320# - and Hobie Cat complied. Since about 1993, each hull is weighed after production and the weight is engraved on the transom. The average weight is 68-72# per hull.

Most boats made since that time are fairly close to minimum weight - when they are new. Boats will gain weight as they grow older. Equipment is added and materials take up water. The older the boat, the more weight it will gain.

In 1995, Hobie USA adopted the integrated track crossbars, related travelers and the front castings with integrated turning blocks that Hobie Europe was using. That's the only major change that happened that year.

A 1995 boat with new sails and glued frame should be very competitive - provided it hasn't soaked up too much water.


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 Post subject: Re: Hobie 16 mast rake
PostPosted: Sun Dec 16, 2012 12:25 pm 
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Joined: Wed Feb 09, 2011 6:41 pm
Posts: 58
Location: Cape Coral FL
Great info, thanks very much. I was worried that I was going to have to lose more weight :lol: :lol:

I always wondered what those additional numbers were. I have 69 engraved on both my hulls. Hopefully my hulls have not sucked up too much water.


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