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PostPosted: Sun Dec 16, 2012 7:28 pm 
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Normally, I would agree with you. In this case, though, I think it provides more opportunities for people to race Waves. That can't be all bad.


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PostPosted: Sun Dec 16, 2012 10:39 pm 
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jim-doty wrote:
Normally, I would agree with you. In this case, though, I think it provides more opportunities for people to race Waves. That can't be all bad.

If the folks that formed the International Wave Class had chosen to go the Hobie route and use Hobie rules, couldn't they still have Wave regattas?

I appreciate you indulging me in this discussion.

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PostPosted: Mon Dec 17, 2012 5:42 am 
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MVD wrote:
If the folks that formed the International Wave Class had chosen to go the Hobie route and use Hobie rules, couldn't they still have Wave regattas?


Yes, that would have been the most ideal situation.


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PostPosted: Mon Dec 17, 2012 7:00 am 
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Any ideas as to why they felt the necessity to splinter the class and sail off on a different tack?

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PostPosted: Mon Dec 17, 2012 9:44 am 
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MVD wrote:
Any ideas as to why they felt the necessity to splinter the class and sail off on a different tack?


You could ask Rick directly at catsailor.com's forum, but I think the impetus had to do with Hobie viewing the Wave as rec only at first. It might have also been a way to control costs a bit as Hobie's sails are or were lots more expensive than a competitive market. This SMOD vs. open manufacturer comes up all the time, but Hobie will prett much come down on the SMOD side of the argument--it's in their financial best interest to do so. I haven't raced mine, but it's old blown out rag wouldn't help much (or my 220# frame).

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PostPosted: Mon Dec 17, 2012 10:23 am 
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MVD wrote:
Any ideas as to why they felt the necessity to splinter the class and sail off on a different tack?


This is an old topic with lots of pre-existing discussion. Basically, when Hobie introduced the Wave, Hobie and the Hobie Class Association did not support a one-design racing class- they did not want the Wave to be a racing boat.

Rick White and the group in Florida found the Wave to be an excellent solo boat for racing, so they set up their own racing class which is entirely separate from Hobie Cat Co. and the HCA. They made their own class (the IWCA) with their own rules, one of which allows sails to be made from any sailmaker.

Years later, Hobie and the HCA decided that they would like to estabilish a Wave one-design class under the HCA. This HCA class requires sailors to use only Hobie brand sails. So the two groups could never find common ground, so there exists two Wave class associations with the IWCA being the larger/more active group.

sm


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PostPosted: Mon Dec 17, 2012 11:01 am 
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I've sailed both. I own a North sail and I sailed in the US Nationals last year. Did well for a fat old guy, thanks for asking. Then got into trouble when I went to a Hobie regatta and figured I was OK, at least tolerable. I was pissed off when I felt pressured to buy a Hobie sail. All that being said I've sailed both and there doesn't appear to be much difference in performance. Or price for that matter. My North sail cost almost exactly the same as a white Hobie sail. The coloured Hobie sails, Calvert, Pattison all cost more. I like the shape of the North better and I suspect it might be a touch faster. But in my hands it sure doesn't make much difference.

For what it's worth this year at the US Nationals sanctioned by IWCA, where all sails that measure are legal, was won by a Leah White who is a woman and light sailing in light air using a Calvert sail. Tom Whitehurst, who is a guy and I assume heavier, was second using a Hobie sail. It was 20.5 to 29 points. As I said, it sure doesn't make much difference. The skill of the driver, well ... that's a whole 'nother story.

Right now this whole issue is close to religion in what you believe. The IWCA is "run what you brung" now and most people use aftermarket sails. I expect at some point HCANA will say "run what you brung until 2016 (or some other date)" and we'll all be one happy family.


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PostPosted: Mon Dec 17, 2012 12:14 pm 
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Hello All,

Jim Doty- Well done, answering MVD's questions regarding the confusion about the two Wave Classes.

Big Whoop- Thanks for the relevant scoop from the old ICWA Meeting. I can't believe Havasu was only 3 years ago it seems like a billion years.

MVD

The WAVE totally should be your next boat! After years on a 14, 16 and 18 you will be THRILLED with the total lack of tuning and time it takes to get on the water.

Your questions and comments about the two classes are well put and totally understandable. Rick White deserves huge credit for turning a recreational boat into a racing class.

sm writes
<<So the two groups could never find common ground, so there exists two Wave class associations with the IWCA being the larger/more active group.>>

Since 2009 I've been HAC-NA Wave Representative. Past Chairmen Chris Wessels and I have been working hard to bring the two classes together. The more boats on the line the better. I have raced mostly HCA events, but have also done Ricks Class regattas. I'm partial to the Hobie class race management, understandability so. We are still working toward finding common ground.

Mimi Appel
Wave Rep HCA-NA

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PostPosted: Mon Dec 17, 2012 3:23 pm 
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A little more history and why we do what we do...

The custom sails desired by the IWCA are driven by a couple factors. Rick believes that various weight differences can be overcome by different sail cuts. Fuller for power, flatter for less power. Custom sails are also driven by the types of sailors that he draws to the events. Most of the guys that sail his events are experienced sailors and some are sail makers... they wanted to make their own sails. This is typical in a lot of mono hull design classes. Sail makers compete within the classes. This is what is often referred to as an arms race... Some sailors can afford the latest tweaked sail design. This, to us, defeats two of the basic principles of the Wave, simple out of the box fun and appeal for entry level sailors.

Another sail feature they like is the diagonal foot batten. It holds the clew out for better reach and run performance. That is good for what it does, but also requires you to install and remove the batten every time you sail. At least I believe that to be the case. Not sure how you would roll the sail with it in place. That defeats another of the simple-to-rig design guidelines we placed on the Wave.

You absolutely don't need to customize a Wave to have a ton of fun racing them.

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PostPosted: Mon Dec 17, 2012 3:47 pm 
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Thank you all for answering my questions. Although I'm a glass cat sailor, I've been watching the Wave class from afar and have a lot of respect for you guys and your boats.

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H16 #112205 (Richard Petty Signature Edition)
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PostPosted: Mon Dec 17, 2012 4:05 pm 
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The custom sails desired by the IWCA are driven by a couple factors. Rick believes that various weight differences can be overcome by different sail cuts. Fuller for power, flatter for less power.

As I said above I own a North sail. I bought a sail for a Wave and they built it and sent it to me. There was a very short discussion about anything custom. No.

Custom sails are also driven by the types of sailors that he draws to the events. Most of the guys that sail his events are experienced sailors and some are sail makers... they wanted to make their own sails. This is typical in a lot of mono hull design classes. Sail makers compete within the classes. This is what is often referred to as an arms race... Some sailors can afford the latest tweaked sail design. This, to us, defeats two of the basic principles of the Wave, simple out of the box fun and appeal for entry level sailors.

That may have been true at one time. I didn't go to the IWCA US Nationals this year, but last year I think North sails were 8 out of the top 10. Calvert did a lot better this year. As noted so did Hobie. I think the arms race, if there ever was one, is over and now the sailmakers just sell sails. As you say most of the guys I met there were "experienced", (read that as old), but there were young folk there too. And everybody I met was eager to help me up the learning curve, swap boats, check out my set up, whatever.

Another sail feature they like is the diagonal foot batten. It holds the clew out for better reach and run performance. That is good for what it does, but also requires you to install and remove the batten every time you sail. At least I believe that to be the case. Not sure how you would roll the sail with it in place. That defeats another of the simple-to-rig design guidelines we placed on the Wave.

Most aftermarket sails are also flat top. So you not only have to remove the bottom batten but the top batten too, to avoid folding the sail. It does take maybe a couple of minutes to insert and tension the battens, but it takes me longer than that to get into my cute sailing outfit. Not a deal. What is more of a deal is the possibility of losing a batten. I tuck mine inside the rolled sail and they can slide out and then slip through the not quite closed end of the sail bag.

You absolutely don't need to customize a Wave to have a ton of fun racing them.
Hear! Hear! Quick to set up, simple to sail, lots of flotation which seems to smooth out the speed differences between the smaller and larger people, but it's still sailboat racing and the guys that do well put the boat in the right place at the right time. And in the case of one older and larger sailor, keeps him in the game.


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PostPosted: Tue Dec 18, 2012 2:38 pm 
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mmiller wrote:
A little more history and why we do what we do...

The custom sails desired by the IWCA are driven by a couple factors. Rick believes that various weight differences can be overcome by different sail cuts. Fuller for power, flatter for less power. Custom sails are also driven by the types of sailors that he draws to the events. Most of the guys that sail his events are experienced sailors and some are sail makers... they wanted to make their own sails. This is typical in a lot of mono hull design classes. Sail makers compete within the classes. This is what is often referred to as an arms race... Some sailors can afford the latest tweaked sail design. This, to us, defeats two of the basic principles of the Wave, simple out of the box fun and appeal for entry level sailors.

Another sail feature they like is the diagonal foot batten. It holds the clew out for better reach and run performance. That is good for what it does, but also requires you to install and remove the batten every time you sail. At least I believe that to be the case. Not sure how you would roll the sail with it in place. That defeats another of the simple-to-rig design guidelines we placed on the Wave.

You absolutely don't need to customize a Wave to have a ton of fun racing them.


I have to agree with Rick White and allow custom sails & tramps. That is the big difference between the two camps. For those of us that want to race, we will eventually buy another sail. Having a choice is the American way but not Hobie Cats way.

I raced the Wave Nationals and yes finished second with a stock 06 well used Wave & sail. Only addition was a 10 hole adjuster at the bridle connection vs the stock 7 hole. SIMPLE. Having a custom sail had little to do with winning or losing nor was I slow with a stock Hobie sail. It is not a arms race but a choice for brand, crew weight and style of sailing.

The IWCA is well established and the wave is a fun boat to sail and race so hopefully HCA & IWCA can work to form a unified class.

I can see Hobie offering a race model with epo blades, 10 hole bridle adjuster, older rudder system & no sail at the same price point because their is a demand for this setup and accept what is established.

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PostPosted: Tue Dec 18, 2012 4:41 pm 
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The IWCA is really only established in two regions as far as I can tell. Where Rick stays in the winter...Florida and where they stay in the summer... Put in Bay, Lake Erie Ohio.

The Hobie Class Association is a World Wide organization, so by that... I'd be more apt to go with what the HCA thinks is best for the whole.

I totally agree though...

Quote:
the wave is a fun boat to sail and race so hopefully HCA & IWCA can work to form a unified class.

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PostPosted: Mon Dec 24, 2012 5:27 am 
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<<so hopefully HCA & IWCA can work to form a unified class.>>

I totally agree, Tom It's great to hear some new enthusiasm!

Jack Woehrle has been really helpful and enthusiastic in resent years also.

Any ideas to bring the Classes together quicker would be greatly appreciated. I see our biggest issue being the sail.

Top priority, in my opinion, is we must do back flips to conserve Hobie Alters intentions for the boat and the Class.
KEEP IT SIMPLE

The more time spent on making adjustments the less time spent on sailing.

In todays world there is great need for people torelax and have fun[/size].
Sailing, Hobie regattas and the Hobie Way provides a wonderfully simple, relatively inexpensive vehicle to make that happen, year after year.

The HCA holds these truths to be self evident and we the people agree it's worth working hard to keep it simple:>

Happy Holidays, my friends, and Happy Sailing New Year.

Mimi

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PostPosted: Mon Dec 24, 2012 8:56 am 
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I am just trying to figure out how to get to 30 boat North Americans. IWCA just had a huge race down in S. Florida and I wonder if doing it in the off season like that would get more crossover from a the other classes? With as many Waves as are on the streets of America, we should be killing it numbers-wise. Rehoboth and Mississippi had decent numbers, but I don't understand why its not pulling in Laser like numbers. Maybe off season is the way to go....?


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