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PostPosted: Thu Mar 21, 2013 7:38 am 
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My count is as follows:
......Everglades Challenge, 2013--7 AIs started; 6 finished
......Ultra Marathon, 2013--2 tandems, 1 AI started; 1 tandem, 1 AI finished

Pelican & his son were in the UM2013

The Ultra Marathon starts in Ft Desoto, but finishes in about 60 miles at the first Checkpoint.

Keith

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"Any intelligent fool can make things bigger and more complex ... It takes a touch of genius and a lot of courage to move in the opposite direction." A. Einstein


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PostPosted: Thu Mar 21, 2013 8:23 am 
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vtwave wrote:
hello all, just read this thread, great reporting by all. My wife and I were in this years EC in a Vanguard Nomad and had a great time. We finished on our first attempt but conditions favored a boat like ours. We were able to sleep onboard as well and that made a huge difference for us. Not having to find campsites really simplifies things. So know that we have done it on the outside, my wife wants to go for the inside Wilderness Waterway route and has her eyes on a TI....


For those who don't know, these are Watertribers ZerotheHero and GreenMountainGal. Zero, I'd try to convince her that a pair of single AI's are a better choice. More carrying capacity and the Department of Redundancy Department is larger. My wife and I have fun in ours and I like the ability to explore and play independently but together.

ZtH and GMG leaving Checkpoint 1:

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PostPosted: Thu Mar 21, 2013 1:10 pm 
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So has a TI ever completed an E.C. ?

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PostPosted: Thu Mar 21, 2013 1:19 pm 
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chrisj wrote:
So has a TI ever completed an E.C. ?
Parts of it have. :lol:


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PostPosted: Thu Mar 21, 2013 2:23 pm 
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PenguinMan and OceanDiva completed a couple of EC's in a TI. Last one was 2010. Previous to that it was the fiberglass TI prototype, 2009....

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PostPosted: Thu Mar 21, 2013 2:25 pm 
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PenquinMan & OceanDiva have completed the EC a couple times in a tandem. Tandems have 2 things (maybe more) against them for the EC. (1) As I said many times, the tandem is large. Luging it around on beaches for a 6-7 day, physically demanding trip is tough. For a single person, the tandem is almost a ridiculous boat to use in the EC. (2) Hobie has not shown that they can build a tandem that can withstand the stresses of the EC--strong winds and many dds--without breaking.

Keith

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I sail: Biscayne Bay, Everglades to Cape Romano, Ft Desoto, Cedar Key

"Any intelligent fool can make things bigger and more complex ... It takes a touch of genius and a lot of courage to move in the opposite direction." A. Einstein


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PostPosted: Thu Mar 21, 2013 2:49 pm 
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With a race like this you have to very careful to know your limits and stay within them, because everything happening tries to tell you to push harder, go faster, etc. There were a few times during the race where I almost fell victim to it. Right off the beach we had rudder issues that took about 10 minutes to sort out. Once sorted we were behind the majority of class 4. My competitive side kicked in and I wanted to get back those miles. We started to head outside. That was not our plan, our plan was inside, given the forecast. When the rain came over us and the temp fell quickly I realized I was being stupid. We went inside instead. I kept telling my self, "sail your own race, a finish is a win". When we reached CP1 and set up camp, other people were coming in and leaving fast. I started thinking about breaking down the tent and heading out, getting in more miles. GreenMountainGal was tired and hungry, and so was I, but the thoughts were still there. I decided to stay put. At the end of day 2 we were approaching the Sanibel causeway at about 4:30. It was sunny but there was a shower heading our way and as it passed the wind kicked up to 20-25+. I called it, despite several more hours of daylight, and we nestled into a mangrove cove for the night. Temps were supposed to fall into the 30's and it's a long was to Marco in the dark, without a lot of hiding places. I wanted to head out but was glad to be sheltered and rested. We ate hot food, set up the tent and slept. CaptainChaos was very close to us but got underway, maybe staying put would have been the call, but the race calls strong.
There were other times but these were the critical calls that we made the right calls on. Lie Chief say, "anyone can sail from St. Pete to Key Largo given enough time". It's true, and with the time you have you have to make the choices that are right for you. It's hard to stop, but you have to. PLanning those stops to your benefit is the key.
A TI can (and has) made it and will do it again. The boat is fine, it's the grey matter between the skippers ears that is the weakest point of all. Anyone who wants to give it a go should, just know yourself and don't over do it.


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PostPosted: Thu Mar 21, 2013 3:47 pm 
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I recall that pelican has suffered many failures before this catastrophic one. These included broken masts, bearing plate welds snapping, Aka dismounts, trashed dagger (grounding) and probably others like Mdrives, rudder, pins,..

And he still comes back for more. 8)

Given that the AI and TI share so many components, and given the notion that 2 heads are better than one in a race like this, I don't see why the faster, larger TI with a redundant crew and better floatation would be less worthy of the course.

(If oceandiva had come along, penguinman would likely have sailed one again).

The TI handles swells better, in my opinion. From what I have read, pelican failed to negotiate large side swells, while attempting a pass to inland water. Penguinman made it. May have been skill, may have been luck, may have been bungies - but I don't think it was because he was on a 2-man TI.

Sure hope he breaks his radio silence and tells us the whole story. His EC hopes and his boat ended up in a dumpster, so you can't blame him for withdrawing for awhile. :(


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PostPosted: Thu Mar 21, 2013 4:08 pm 
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Last year BackwaterBob in a tandem suffered a total separation of the mast holder cup from the x-bar in the Shark River area, about 70 mi from the finish. I believe, a year or 2 earlier, Tyro & Paddlecarver in the original fiberglass, prototype tandem broke down (mast cup screw) between Shark River and Cape Sable.

Even if a tandem piloted by someone other a Hobie employee finished, the tandem does not have a good record in the EC.

Yes, Pelican has had many mishaps culminating in this year's disaster. It is all money in the pocket because he is a motivational speaker, and this is all grist for the mill.

Keith

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I sail: Biscayne Bay, Everglades to Cape Romano, Ft Desoto, Cedar Key

"Any intelligent fool can make things bigger and more complex ... It takes a touch of genius and a lot of courage to move in the opposite direction." A. Einstein


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PostPosted: Thu Mar 21, 2013 4:38 pm 
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NOHUHU wrote:
Given that the AI and TI share so many components, and given the notion that 2 heads are better than one in a race like this, I don't see why the faster, larger TI with a redundant crew and better floatation would be less worthy

As Keith suggests, maybe the problem is that the TI is a much heavier boat with a much larger sail area, made with the same materials and components as the AI. When conditions get extreme, those components are under much more stress in the TI and things break. Whatever the reason, the performance of the AI's in the E.C.'s has been stellar compared with that of the TI's. Something to think about for all those who claim the TI is a better boat in every way.

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PostPosted: Thu Mar 21, 2013 5:56 pm 
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without any personal experience in a TI or AI I think chrisJ is spot on. The greater loads on the components in the TI result in failure. Especially in rough conditions. So that gets back to my point about knowing limits. Perhaps the TI has just been pushed too hard thus far and needs a more seasoned touch. I really think that the TI is capable of finishing but possibly needs to be sailed more gently than it has been, except by penguinman and oceandiva.


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PostPosted: Thu Mar 21, 2013 6:08 pm 
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When many of us say the TI is a better boat, we're not necessarily talking about it being stronger or tougher than an AI, but more along the lines of it letting the user do more - take 2 people along, ride drier in the rear seat, haul more gear, etc.

The TI has a lot more sail area than the AI which naturally puts a lot more stress on the boat, which isn't really built any heavier than the AI. But the user always has the option to furl some portion of the sail, thereby reducing at least some of the additional stress.

The TI may not be better than the AI in an expedition type race. Then again, maybe it'll take a few more competitions before we'll know for sure.


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PostPosted: Thu Mar 21, 2013 7:32 pm 
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Tom, I can tell you now, the Tandem will never be a better solo boat for the EC than the AI. Too big, too bulky, too heavy. If you have to pedal, give me the AI any time. Yes, the Tandem is inherently faster to sail unless it is overloaded.

Also, what you say is a plus, "haul more gear," is a negative in my mind. I've seen people with a Tandem (solo or duo) bring way, way too much gear on camping trips. The Tandem just invites people to take too much gear.

vtwave--"possibly needs to be sailed more gently than it has been." Not going to happen. The EC has become a serious, adventure race. People do not do things "gently" in this race. The Tandem has to bulk up to be fit for the EC.

Keith

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I sail: Biscayne Bay, Everglades to Cape Romano, Ft Desoto, Cedar Key

"Any intelligent fool can make things bigger and more complex ... It takes a touch of genius and a lot of courage to move in the opposite direction." A. Einstein


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PostPosted: Thu Mar 21, 2013 8:50 pm 
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Just as an FYI vtwave=zerothehero. What I mean is this, you can push hard, sometimes really hard. But you have to understand the boat, and the crew. We did, and despite breaking our mast foot (not the step) we finished(not in a TI). Hobie TI's seem to need an element of finesse to get them to Key Largo. The boat has certain limits, respect them and you are going to make it. I think the TI has just as much a place in the EC as the AI does, but you have to hold back sometimes. To know what that is you need to go out and try to break the boat before hand. Otherwise you are blind.


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PostPosted: Thu Mar 21, 2013 8:58 pm 
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You would think a TI with two on board would be at a tremendous advantage, as the crew could spell each other and not have to lay over to rest.

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