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PostPosted: Wed Mar 27, 2013 1:30 am 
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Chekika wrote:
Good to see you back, Chaos. Matt Miller has hinted (once) about a more "sailing oriented" AI. My view, suggestion/hope, is that Hobie is going to come out with a much improved AI. It will be faster than the TI--wouldn't that be a blast. Probably won't be lighter, because it will be a somewhat bigger boat.

I've suggested it might be called "AI II," or "AI sailing," or best "AI Magnum."

Keith


Thanks Keith,

AI Magnum made me think of AI Blue Steel :lol:

in response to the comments below, I think the Hobie engineers have the ability to increase the speed of the boat without significantly compromising the versatility of the AI.

In my opinion the only thing that would take a hit would be stability in "kayak mode".

But just imagine how magical it would be to get the AI planing :o

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PostPosted: Wed Mar 27, 2013 4:59 am 
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ChaosDave wrote:
in response to the comments below, I think the Hobie engineers have the ability to increase the speed of the boat without significantly compromising the versatility of the AI.

In my opinion the only thing that would take a hit would be stability in "kayak mode".

But just imagine how magical it would be to get the AI planing :o


http://smalltridesign.com/Trimaran-Arti ... Plane.html

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PostPosted: Wed Mar 27, 2013 6:49 am 
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The Island Series boats are almost the perfect cross-over craft between Hobie's kayak and sailing lines. Push them one direction or the other and they cease to be that.

Maybe what's needed, is a totally new, dedicated trimaran with the primary emphasis on sailing.


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PostPosted: Thu Apr 04, 2013 5:52 pm 
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Or motoring,.. Look out, this guys on our tail! :wink:



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PostPosted: Fri Apr 05, 2013 1:24 am 
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NOHUHU wrote:
Or motoring,.. Look out, this guys on our tail! :wink:

NOHUHU That guy could be the old fart from my story on the other channel... :shock:

My dream AI would have a spinnaker that could double as a jib, without the need for fitting stays to the mast. Where I sail (just a few miles from Hobie's factory in San Diego) light winds are the norm 360 days a year .

I've been thinking about how a spinnaker/jib might be made on the same principles as a folding Japanese hand-held fan using sail battens and with a collapsible rig (for those rare windier days), might work on the AI.
It would need to have a swivel connection on the bow, something similar to the windsurfer mast base and would be independent of the main mast thereby avoiding the complications of extra mast stress/reinforcement. I think it would greatly increase the flexibility of the AI, and maybe even improve the pointing a bit. it should also be a user installable upgrade. Got me thinking.....

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PostPosted: Sun Apr 07, 2013 3:32 pm 
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Tom Kirkman wrote:
Maybe what's needed, is a totally new, dedicated trimaran with the primary emphasis on sailing.
Something REALLY fast, right Tom? Maybe with 2 sails, some foils and a helmet?? ;-)

That might scratch our itch.


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PostPosted: Sun Apr 07, 2013 6:14 pm 
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I think such a thing as that would be a bit too specialized and not likely to be versatile enough for the type people who lean towards the Island series boats (unless they already own one or two of those - in which case, then, why not?) I'll let you know next week. 8)

I'm leaning more towards what Motive Trimarans is doing, but in a roto-molded plastic construction with a Mirage Drive incorporated somehow.


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PostPosted: Mon Apr 08, 2013 1:59 am 
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Well then, I really hope 67 turns out to be your lucky number. :mrgreen:


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PostPosted: Mon Apr 08, 2013 7:00 am 
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Guys:
After reading that little article on Small Trimarans (posted above), I really think there is something about a bow sprit on a TI (or AI, though no one has tried it yet). I have found that tilting the fore sails way forward also creates upward lift at higher speeds raising the bow out of the water on my TI. I swear there is some plane'ing going on when I'm really pushing the boat. At lower speeds we still need the wave piercing bow and narrow back for less hull drag resistance. Adding a bow sprit and the extra sails might be the addition that still allows the boat to be used as a kayak and low speed with minimal drag. Yet when you want to open it up the hull can still plane (somewhat).
Now this lift is different from sitting in the rear seat, when in the rear seat the rear of the boat sits way deeper in the water (I always sail in the front seat).
Unless I have the boat overloaded (which I've been known to do), as I speed up my bow raises out of the water and I no longer have a problem with nose diving (what I used to call Nautilus mode, where the bow would dive down completely under water and you would just continue sailing that way, until you let up on the sails , very wet ride).
Just food for thought, I like the versatility of the current design, being able to use as a kayak, and a decent sailboat, and I wouldn't want to lose that.
Bob


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PostPosted: Mon Apr 08, 2013 4:43 pm 
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Agreed, Bob. If our bows were reinforced internally, it would be easy to safely add a bowsprit. (The WETA, being a short boat, benefits from this).

Aft of the mast, our hulls are very smooth and flat, especially on the TI. There's plenty of area to plane, as some of us experience on rare occasions, but this lifting will always dig the rudder and small keel deeper, creating drag and stress. Redesigning the transom and rudder may be part of solving the whole equation.

I can't tell you what it will look like exactly, but one thing seems certain to me; if we design >12 knot speeds into our hulls, the current rudder line design and plastic rudder pins are not going to suffice. They will need reinforcing. And more sails on the mast will require a back stay, at least. The mirage drives may need to be stored somewhere else and the hole plugged properly

The other factor is weight. Specifically distribution. It involves beginning to design around the concept of leaving the cockpit and hiking, as is customary in the Hobie fashion. And in the Haka tradition.

When you remove 100-200 lbs from the main hull and float them in the right place, you ALLOW the boat to lift faster and get on plane. You get a level hull. You get less drag from the Amas. More lift from the sails. Plus a balanced rudder and dagger. Some of us know this feeling well and can't go back to the missionary position.

So we hope that a shift in design thinking will happen. (Not a reversal). Steering from the cockpit while pedaling must be considered "A" mode of riding, not "THE" mode. Until the AI/TI are 100% adopted by the sailing division, this may never happen.

Ultimately, it may prove most efficient to add more sail and a small foil assist system to achieve near planing speeds (in or out of the cockpit). In the form of an add on kit maybe? This would please the masses and not hurt the traditional kayak-mode enthusiasts.

So if an off-duty engineer with a few hundred bucks can figure much of this out in his garage on the weekends, then Hobie can too.

Cuz I somehow think that changing nothing, and selling us a $70 hiking stick is not going to be enough to keep this "Flat-out, live-fast, have-fun, Adventure" craze going.


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PostPosted: Mon Apr 08, 2013 5:57 pm 
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I think we have discussed this before somewhere. The AI/TI should probably be considered as "semi-displacement" hulls, since they are both capable of going a good bit faster than the theoretical hull speed of a full displacement hull.
Got to agree with NOHUHU, until you get up out of that kayak seat, you are sailing a glorified kayak. Moving your weight around is a critical part of sailing all small sailboats, if you want optimal performance.

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PostPosted: Mon Apr 08, 2013 7:55 pm 
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Amen nohuhu.

I finally got to experience my hakas in full style this weekend. A dozen or so of us were sailing in a hobie island get together here in SF bay area. Winds were perfect, if a little gusty. In our little race, I got to hike out-under full sail, nver burying the ama, but leaning wayyyy out and bsck. I swear I felt that Hull plane as it was surfing on the wind waves...and handily dusted my seat bound compatriots.

I want more of that...so redesign and give me some.


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PostPosted: Tue Apr 09, 2013 12:53 pm 
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If you simply took the Revolution 13, stretched it a couple or so feet, and added on the current AI Amas and Akas, you'd have a boat that would be drier than the current Adventure, a seat that didn't keep a puddle of water in it, a tank well that didn't hold water, and a larger front hatch opening.

In may ways, the Revolution is a better kayak than the Adventure. A slightly longer version might make the ideal solo Island boat.


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PostPosted: Tue Apr 09, 2013 7:44 pm 
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Tom Kirkman wrote:
In may ways, the Revolution is a better kayak than the Adventure.
I'm not sure that your view is shared by as many people as you might think.

Also, the problem that I have with the wet seat, is the fact that the low point in the seating area doesn't have a drain. The Revo and Adventure both had wet seats once water came over the top of the boat.

To add to the greater discussion, getting wet isn't a huge concern for me. It would be nice if the spray didn't hit the aka in the same manner that it does now, but in a boat that sits that low to the water, it's almost part of the rush. Having good clothing takes a lot of the displeasure out of getting wet for me.

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PostPosted: Wed Apr 10, 2013 12:29 am 
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Tom Kirkman wrote:
In may ways, the Revolution is a better kayak than the Adventure. A slightly longer version might make the ideal solo Island boat.
Well, gotta go with Aug on this one.

Trying to sail the revo is what led me to the AI. Poor stability, lousy rudder, cramped seating and less storage. The hull tracked like a pinball machine when paddled. I remember the hatch being smaller too.

About the only thing I preferred about the revo was that it was easier to deadlift onto the roof of my car. (Man, I miss that!).

It might be a drier ride, I don't know, but otherwise this idea is lost on me.

Tom, what are the revo qualities you are draw to?


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