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 Post subject: Re: TI FWD XBAR FAILURE
PostPosted: Wed Apr 10, 2013 8:22 pm 
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Joined: Fri Apr 16, 2010 7:32 pm
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Location: tampa, fl
dont forget to check and tighten the 4 screws in the bottom of the mast receiver that hold the pin for the mast. Mine was loose when I heard the clunking during tacking.
You will need to buy a real long phillips screwdriver


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 Post subject: Re: TI FWD XBAR FAILURE
PostPosted: Wed Apr 10, 2013 8:50 pm 
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Joined: Sat Nov 05, 2011 1:58 am
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Location: Forster, NSW, Australia
NOHUHU wrote:
Yes, Hobie has been terrific about fixing and replacing the crossbar problems.

We still get some clunking though, after replacing the bar with the through-welded version, so I'm not convinced the problem has disappeared, but it's improved and the new crossbar can handle more stress.

The adjacent Harken cleats will only stop excessive bar travel, and not the more common, back and forth 1/8 - 1/4" slip. This is why I feel that pinning is still required.

I don't know for sure, but I suspect Hobie moved the furling cleat towards the center to allow for easier furling, (a noted problem among gurly-man TI owners). But this puts it in the middle of front passenger, and that really frustrates attempts to control reefing lines from the rear cockpit.

Hang on - didn't Hobie move the cleats so that the mainsheet one was outside the right clamp, with the furling one just inside it? That is how my 2012 TI is.

Are you suggesting that Hobie has now moved the cleats inwards as per your diagram?

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2012 Tandem Island "SIC EM"
www.scenefromabove.com.au


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 Post subject: Re: TI FWD XBAR FAILURE
PostPosted: Wed Apr 10, 2013 9:30 pm 
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Joined: Sun Apr 20, 2008 6:18 am
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Location: Sarasota,Key West FL
tonystott :
The original design back in 2010 had the cleats like yours (one on each side of the brace), this was the original design. Sometime in 2011 someone at Hobie changed that so the furling cleat was next to the mast, and they moved the sail line cleat inside the brace. They apparently did all this without consulting with the original designers ( I assume), thus creating the sliding AKA problem. Once they realized their mistake they moved them back to the original position, all late 2011 and 2012+ TI's come with the cleats in the correct position (one on each side of the brace to limit AKA sliding) to the best of my knowledge. This is my assumption of the situation and all pure speculation on my part. Since I am one of the few people who has owned all the models (2010,2011, and 2012) I have a pretty good understanding of their design history (plus I'm a designer so I notice things like that). Their was also tolerance issues on the early painted AKA bars (not the anodized ones) which made them more susceptible to sliding. So there was a period of time they had both the old painted AKA bars and the moved cleats, this is when all hell broke loose with many sliding Xbars. Once everything was understood, Hobie was pretty good about correcting the problem permanently. with newer boats (and older boats especially) as long as everyone checks everything periodically, and makes sure everything stays tight (use locktite), there should be no sliding Xbar problems.
At least that's my take on what happened.

If you look at the first picture on the first page of this thread, stringy's broken xbar is one of the older painted xbars, it also has the defective weld (before they figured out how to weld the xbars correctly during manufacture) which you can spot a mile away. Also note in the same picture the position of the Harken cleats (in their original design position). The newer improved AKA bars are anodized (a duller finish that doesn't scratch off). The newest xbars are anodized, and also have the second weld on the back side ( a way improved design).
Bob


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 Post subject: Re: TI FWD XBAR FAILURE
PostPosted: Sun Sep 08, 2013 3:39 am 
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Joined: Mon Feb 28, 2011 5:58 pm
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Location: Adelaide, South Australia
It is spring here and I have replaced my old failing crossbar with the new through-welded one that Hobie sent promptly via my excellent dealer, Binks Marine. I checked adjusted and tightened every thing, but did not apply Loctite to the surface of the crossbar where the clamps go for a couple of reasons. Firstly, I wanted to see how the new part would perform in standard trim, and secondly, I could not get Loctite from the local (large) hardware store, bought a generic copy, and then read that it was not recommended for use on plastics. Can Loctite be safely used on plastic?
The bar unfortunately still slips back and forth quite freely, although it is now limited by the blocks mounted either side.
I am back to where I started with this. No-one who has replaced the bar and or the spacer block under the mast collar has said that the lateral slippage has stopped. It has only been reduced by the return to siting the Harken blocks either side of the starboard clamp, and I don't believe a plastic saddle clamp will ever be able to achieve enough friction to withstand the enormous leverage that a loaded mast would exert. There is only one way to fix this - pin or screw the crossbar to the hull though the crossbar clamp base.
I am about to risk my warranty by doing it, but the slop in this structure is driving me nuts.
Anyone else out there taken drastic measures?


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 Post subject: Re: TI FWD XBAR FAILURE
PostPosted: Sun Sep 08, 2013 4:36 am 
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Joined: Sun Apr 20, 2008 6:18 am
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Location: Sarasota,Key West FL
Abonnin:
Putting screws in there might be a little extreme. A couple electrical pull ties wrapped around the xbar will do the same job. Find large pull ties that just fit between the harken blocks and the right aka hull brace. Make sure they are black if possible ( black blocks uv and won't be ruined by the sunlight). Won't void your warranty since they are easily removed.
Double check the tightness on the v brace system, the most important screws being the two thru the bar holding the spacer, because I'm surprised you are still having side to side play.
Hope this helps
Bob
Edit: I had a similar problem, and upon close inspection I discovered the holes in my 3/4x 1 inch spacer block had worn oval badly from the old xbar sliding back and forth. Replacing the spacer with their new spacer (with no manufacturing play in the holes) solved my problem.


Last edited by fusioneng on Sun Sep 08, 2013 5:00 am, edited 2 times in total.

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 Post subject: Re: TI FWD XBAR FAILURE
PostPosted: Sun Sep 08, 2013 4:48 am 
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Joined: Sat Nov 05, 2011 1:58 am
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Location: Forster, NSW, Australia
Abonnin, go back to Binks, there is no reason why they won't solve your problem. I have complete faith in Hobie to do the right thing.

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Tony Stott
2012 Tandem Island "SIC EM"
www.scenefromabove.com.au


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 Post subject: Re: TI FWD XBAR FAILURE
PostPosted: Sun Nov 03, 2013 5:42 pm 
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Joined: Tue May 08, 2012 8:16 pm
Posts: 56
Location: Tampa, FL
Sorry to say we also joined the club today.

Fortunately we were directly upwind from a ramp....a mile or so away. So we just pedaled along with the wind and swells. This was not the ramp we launched from, but a friend was nearby and gave me a lift back to the ramp we started from and I just brought the trailer to where we made landfall.

Image


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 Post subject: Re: TI FWD XBAR FAILURE
PostPosted: Sun Nov 03, 2013 6:28 pm 
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Joined: Sun Apr 20, 2008 6:18 am
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Location: Sarasota,Key West FL
The good news is the replacement bar you get from Hobie is much stronger and at least your mast didn't break ( I would pull the sail and inspect it, and also have the dealer inspect it).
Now I'm glad I didn't go out today, I was planning to make a run up around Egmont key today launching from city island in sarasota bay ( about 50 mile round trip) but my sore back from helping a friend put in their patio ( about 3000 lbs of pavers) put a damper on that. Just a little too windy to fight it (upwind) that far, I think there was a small craft advisory out ( on weather. Com)
Hobie will have you fixed up in no time at all.
Bob


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 Post subject: Re: TI FWD XBAR FAILURE
PostPosted: Sun Nov 03, 2013 8:40 pm 
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Joined: Tue May 18, 2010 2:31 pm
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Location: Kailua 96734
Impressive!! On a downwind run huh? Can you describe what happened?

Don't leave out any blood and guts… :mrgreen:


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 Post subject: Re: TI FWD XBAR FAILURE
PostPosted: Mon Nov 04, 2013 8:11 am 
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Joined: Sun May 13, 2012 4:02 pm
Posts: 42
Location: Tampa Bay, FL
NOHUHU, we were just about to jibe. Since I'm out on the tramp, I was getting a bit cold from all the splashing, so the captain was just starting our turn back toward land when I heard the loud CRACK and within two seconds my hands were on the base of the mast saying, "Oh crap, now what?" I helped hold it while TJ climbed forward and we furled it in and the two of us lifted the mast up and out and placed it parallel with the boat. From there, we just pedaled south to the closest ramp, like he said. Luckily no blood and guts to report :-)

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Kinda fast: 17' Valley kayak
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 Post subject: Re: TI FWD XBAR FAILURE
PostPosted: Mon Nov 04, 2013 9:09 am 
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Location: Sarasota,Key West FL
tj:
Looking closely at the pic you posted, I would consider your failure to be highly unusual. Your Xbar looks to be vintage 2011 to very early 2012 model year. You can tell because the earliest 2010 and early 2011 bars were painted vs anodizing, yours are anodized. When your X-bar was made Hobies welding process had improved to the point where weld failures were very rare (it really was only the early 2010 painted xbars that had the really bad welds). The welded thru bars came in I think mid year 2012, and all since then are welded thru (problem solved), your replacement bar will be welded thru.
As I've explained before the likelihood of the actual damage that caused the failure occurring on Saturday is slim, it's more likely that the failure began at some previous time (ie.. high winds, hard sailing) and final failure took place Saturday. What happens is the ends of the welded area (where all the strength is) becomes fatigued and if you inspect closely you will see a white line around the ends of the welded area (this is the sign that it is beginning to fail). Once the white lines develops it's just a matter of time before the whole weld fails even with regular "not extreme" use, which was likely your case here. My advise to anyone with the older Xbar braces is to keep an eye on the welds and inspect them occasionally for the white lines around the ends of the weld. If you find white lines on the weld (at the ends especially), or the beginnings of deformation around the weld, inform your dealer, because it's gonna break, when it breaks nobody can control (usually at the worst time possible). You were lucky, some of the guys have lost their masts and/or mast recievers as well in the chain of events that typically follow. Good eye evil-e.
Bob

I forgot to mention earlier that you should also double check the mast receiver and the 1/4" stud at the bottom of the hull, they may have also taken a hit. I'm sure just a visual inspection is all that is needed.


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 Post subject: Re: TI FWD XBAR FAILURE
PostPosted: Mon Nov 04, 2013 6:42 pm 
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Joined: Sun May 13, 2012 4:02 pm
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Location: Tampa Bay, FL
Thanks Bob... will do! Yeh, we were lucky. I've been sick lately and we've had a few of our other friends out in "my" seat in the past few weeks. Winds were lighter those days. I'm glad this happened with me there and only 2 seconds away from grabbing it - plus we knew that this would likely happen one day from the posts we have read on here, so when we heard it, I knew right where to look. I also have experience stepping the mast when we go under bridges, so I kept a somewhat cool head in the process, and the Captain kept an even cooler one. We'll see you out there again hopefully soon!

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Fast: 2011 Red Hobie TI
Kinda fast: 17' Valley kayak
Not so fast: 9'8" Tava paddleboard


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 Post subject: Re: TI FWD XBAR FAILURE
PostPosted: Thu Nov 14, 2013 10:11 pm 
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Joined: Tue May 08, 2012 8:16 pm
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Location: Tampa, FL
And just to close the loop, and once again tell the story of Hobie's and Economy Tackle of Sarasota's excellent customer service, a replacement is on the way and under warranty. All that was requested of me was the hull ID and some pictures.

Thumbs up! I am a happy Hobie sailor!


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