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PostPosted: Wed Apr 10, 2013 12:59 pm 
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Has anyone else noticed that on page 19 of the 2013 catalog under model comparisons, the width of the Tandem Island is now listed as 13' 4", in all previous catalogs it was listed as 10' wide.
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It's probably a typo but wouldn't it be wonderful if they really did widen the TI. This would be in anticipation for adding a hull re-enforcing bow sprit, jib kit, and spinnaker kits, and possibly an optional 110 sq ft mainsail (same design just bigger). Of course the rotating mast topper and rear stay line would be included in the kit, along with a re-enforcement insert to go behind the mast at the bottom of the hull (would be necessary if adding sail area). In my opinion nothing else would be needed, once the bow sprit is added, the added lift from the tilted foresails raises the bow out of the water enough to plane (somewhat). Now they have the hiking stick we will be all set.
Look at the catalog, every other sailboat in their lineup has these options (jib, and/or spinnaker, or both, etc) (except the Bravo), so why not the adventure series.
I've been saying all along that the original design should have been 12 ft wide (same width as Windrider 17). This would put the length/width ratio more in line with most of the other similar tri's out there ( including the AI, around 65%)
I'm sure all this is just wishful thinking on my part, but it's fun to dream (oh that's right I already have all that stuff, we are just waiting on Hobie (hint)).

Of course I'm probably all wet with this idea and there is zero interest in a faster better Tandem Island.

I'm being perfectly honest here as an old sunfish sailer, when I first took the test ride on the TI back in spring 2010, (I actually went in to order a new H16, but they talked me into the TI) I commented to the dealer that the TI was lacking in performance especially in lower winds. I was assured that a jib kit was in development and would be released shortly. Honestly I would not have bought the boat had I known the jib was not imminent.
With that information knowing from experience that a jib kit would fix the performance issues I was experiencing, I took it on faith and purchased the TI anyway. All of us have been waiting ever since (3 yrs now). Fortunately I have the knowledge and experience to design and fix the problems for myself, and after a weekend or two of puttering around to fix the shortcomings of the design I am extremely happy with my TI's (I'm on my 3rd TI now), that was 3 yrs ago next month. As a design Engineer I understand that not everyone has the abilities to redesign and make all this stuff and make it all work, and must wait for Hobie.
Unless I'm living in a bubble my only question is how long do we have to wait, it's been 3 yrs now. Am I the only one who has noticed that the standard TI is a bit of a dog in low winds (if so then I do live in a bubble).

Let me make this perfectly clear, I am a big Hobie fan and am not trying to ding Hobiecat company in any way shape or form, I'm just patiently waiting that's all.

Bob


Last edited by fusioneng on Wed Apr 10, 2013 1:32 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Wed Apr 10, 2013 1:30 pm 
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Additional width would allow it to sail flatter in the same wind. Maybe they increased the length of the Akas.

My guess is that for the intended use and market targeted, the Island Series does exactly what Hobie intended.

How much more performance can you pile on to one end before you begin losing something on the opposite end? Not to mention that as the price increases due to additional features and/or performance, sales may decrease.

Not saying that improvements can't be made, but at some point to get a great deal more performance, you need to move to a completely different type of boat.

But it will be interesting to see what Hobie does, if anything. Who knows, I might change my mind and end up buying a new one. I went from a Revo with the sail kit, to an AI, to a TI and most recently to a Trifoiler. The madness doesn't seem to end.


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PostPosted: Wed Apr 10, 2013 1:47 pm 
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Reinforcing the bow, adding more sail or a jib does not change the existing boat in the least. Only extending the Akas would, marginally. Nothing is "lost" with those suggestions.

And Hobie raised the price of the last TI anyway, without adding any substantial changes.

This boat is all about flexibility and options. I think all that Bob and others are saying is that it should have a few more.


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PostPosted: Wed Apr 10, 2013 4:23 pm 
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NOHUHU :
Exactly my point, all the additions would be offered as options just like on all their other sail boats.
For those that want more, they can purchase the options. Especially the sailers who have already purchased their Tandem Islands, Hobie has already got there money from them, adding the option kits would be a totally new money stream drawing on their already huge existing base of AI/TI owners.
This is just my opinion of course but I think they would begin to attract more and possibly younger sailers with a family boat that can also be fun to sail. In my opinion the current TI does not attract the younger sailing crowd, (just us old farts I guess). A TI with performance similar to a Weta, or a Windrider 17 I think could attract some of that crowd. Of course it's never going to displace the H16, H18, Wildcat people who want sheer performance. But as these guys get a little older and want to do things with their families on an extremely versatile boat that can do pretty much everything (except go real fast currently), I can see a better and slightly faster TI design displacing many other types of monohull and multihull trailer able day sailboats ( ie... Laser, Sunfish, Hunters, Stilletto's, etc ). Where the market is 20 times the size of Hobies current market, and all the boats mentioned are way more expensive to purchase, maintain, and store, and way less versatile than the TI, plus many of the manufacturers are no longer in business (it's been tough times in the boat industry for a long time). I owned a sunfish, it's not a family type boat, yet I have no problem taking 4-5 people out on my TI (staying within the weight limits of course), everyone has fun.
Plus you may have noticed that the sailing and the powerboat industries are hurting right now. This doesn't mean that people no longer want to get out on the water, it just means the cost of ownership is now so high that most people cannot afford the luxury (that's why we sold our 21 ft Sea Ray). The cost of gas has gone up so much that it's no longer feasible to go out power boating. Also the Jet ski market I think has tapered off quite a bit, as I always say you can only drive your jetski around Key West a couple times before it gets really boring. Hobie has only just begun to tap the market potential of family boats like the TI, without needing to take any sales from their existing cat market. In my opinion getting more people into the Hobie family will increase sales across there whole product line.
My 2 cents
Bob


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PostPosted: Wed Apr 10, 2013 5:18 pm 
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I hope sailing does pick up again in popularity, among the water toys. Sailing's popular here, of course and our little plastic yachts are coveted by the local kayak fishing enthusiasts, exactly because they require no ramp, no fuel and very little upkeep, (dock fees, registration, insurance, etc).

I like the freedom it brings, and the mental/physical challenge. Sailing is always different, because conditions are always changing. It's what YOU make of it.

You folks may notice that Hobie only has 2 fiberglass sailboats now, and the H16 is the only one that really counts. So everything else has gone to plastic, and I expect things will stay that way for awhile.

I they still have the profits to do it, expanding their plastic sailboat line with an eye toward performance, would fit the current market trajectory. In fact, it would be kinda foolish not to introduce something new, along those lines.


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PostPosted: Wed Apr 10, 2013 10:08 pm 
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All you guys have said is also true in Australia.
I know two guys who would jump at the kits, as long as you don't tell the Mrs.

Having TId across the St Vincent Gulf, we are talking about TIing back from Tasmania, where Slaughter did his recent trip. At our current average of 3 knots, with 3 lay days, it would be a 2 week trip. A small increase of speed from a headsail kit could make the world of difference.

You have our vote Hobie.

Cheers,
Brian

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PostPosted: Wed Apr 10, 2013 10:09 pm 
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Tom Kirkman wrote:
I went from a Revo with the sail kit, to an AI, to a TI and most recently to a Trifoiler. The madness doesn't seem to end.

Tom I nearly missed that statement - so you have added a Trifoiler to your fleet? That's a huge step up in speed capability - not wanting to sidetrack this discussion but I would love to hear your comments about sailing the Trifoiler when you can.

It seems to me that there is a trend of upgrading going on - I also went from Revo to an AI and a few weeks ago to a TI - (I'm not following you Tom, just coincidence). So I am thinking that there might be a case for Hobie to put out a "sports edition" of the AI (maybe the TI too).

If the new TI is 3' wider that is considerable more stability - I wonder why they did that.... maybe the jib testing that they did last year?

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PostPosted: Wed Apr 10, 2013 11:23 pm 
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Hmmmm, I wonder how much the widebody akas will cost :mrgreen:

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PostPosted: Thu Apr 11, 2013 4:21 am 
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My guess is that the added width, if in fact they did lengthen the Amas and we're not all looking at a misprint, will allow the TI to make better use of its larger sail. The extra width will make it harder for the same sail force to push the leeward Ama underwater so the TI will stay flatter on the water, allowing the sail to capture and spill less wind. This alone would make the TI faster on most points of sail.


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PostPosted: Thu Apr 11, 2013 6:04 am 
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Now they just need to change the wording on the capacity from two to 4 (with tramp option or HAKA's). And maybe raise the weight capacity a bit. I'm pretty sure most of us have had 3 or 4 people on our TI's with no issues. If it is to be promoted as a family fun boat, it needs to be promoted for husband, wife, and 2 kids ( kids on the tramps). In my case I always carry 6 pfd's. All it would take is an additional sticker on the tramps stating their additional capacity (200 lbs ea).
If anyone has looked at the wind rider tramps this is what Hobies tramp kit should look like, with a triangle spray skirt pointing forward, then another triangle pointing back behind the rear aka. This would serve two purposes, one to reinforce the aka's from folding, and two to allow hiking from the rear seat. An added benefit would be a much drier ride for all on board, and the ability to lash more gear to the tramps. The front and rear triangle portions of the tramp would be attached to the aka's, to deploy you would would just clip one metal clip at the tip if each triangle to fittings that mount to the hull (as part of the kit). When breaking the boat down you would just unclip one clip and fold the tramps and store with the aka's. the current tramp material would work fine. Another added benefit of the front tramp would be to re-enforce the bow and to repel water from the front hatch. Most of us already have kbob's spray skirts installed and they don't increase the risk of wind catching under the tramp any more than just the current tramp kit. The only criteria is you have to be able to sit on them and store gear.

The best part of all the changes I have outlined is Hobie does not need to change anything on the basic hull, AMA's, or redesign an entirely different boat. Everything mentioned is simply add-ons to an already great boat. The best part speaking as a kayaker is you can strip all the extra's off and use the boat as a great kayak (one of the best tandems out there) for camping and river exploring (just leave the rigging and AMA's back at the camp site).

Another really big deal is all of these changes outlined don't increase the cost of the basic entry level TI at all. All the additional options would be a totally new revenue stream for the already booming TI market. And best of all the nothing I have recommended adds to the weight of the boat (well maybe a few lbs), but this still allows the boat to be stored in your garage, and/or thrown onto the rooftop of your van or SUV and taken anywhere you want to take the family for adventure (I know that's what we do). The boat remains faster to rig and get into the water than anything else on the market today. This boat is totally unique in the market and there is nothing else on the market that can do what the TI can do.
Hopefully Hobie is listening to us, and is preparing for the market explosion that will occur. All the cards are lined up for them, and they only need to pull the trigger, this is a once in a lifetime occurrence for Hobie to be at the right time, in the right place, with the right product), it's up to Hobie now to make it a reality. If I were at the helm (that's what I do I run and guide large multi national corporations for a living, Hobies are my hobby) I would put all hands on deck to make this a reality. Once ready a big market push (TV, advertising, etc) will launch Hobie into the stratosphere. To the best of my knowledge there is nothing like this on the market or on the drawing boards (the unique Mirage drive makes all this possible).
Or maybe I'm all wet and there is nothing out there.
Bob

PS My opinion is Hobie has not fully realized what they have accomplished here and the market potential (basically a whole new market for family fun). If handled correctly with the right options and marketing, this product will dwarf all of their current market.
Just trying to help.


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PostPosted: Thu Apr 11, 2013 8:28 am 
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The Tandem Island has not changed - the Width is still 10' -that is a misprint on the printed comparison chart - but on the product page (both printed and online) it's correct, somehow wrong info was printed on this comparison chart, sorry for the confusion.

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PostPosted: Thu Apr 11, 2013 8:45 am 
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Bob,

Good proofreading.

Out of curiosity I went out and measured the width of my (2010) TI. At the widest part between the Amas under the carrying handles, I have a 10' 1" wide boat; not 13' 4". Oh well... I guess I'll have to get out my "TI Stretcher".

As luck would have it, I happen to have a friends TI in my shop right now that I'm working on. He just bought this boat from a dealer 2 weeks ago. I measured his and came up with the same 10' 1" width.

As you say "wishful thinking", but you're definitely not alone. Many of us agree with what you're asking for. I too would like a faster and stronger TI with the capabilities you're describing.
Drier would be nice too, but that probably really is "wishful thinking" :lol: :lol: :lol:.

I believe we'll eventually see a new TI with these and other exciting improvements. Look at how far these boats have come in just the last 5 years! Hobie does listen (Thank You) and I'm glad you spoke up as well.

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PostPosted: Thu Apr 11, 2013 10:01 am 
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Jbernier :

Thanks for the clarification

everyone else: "Never Mind" LOL

Bob


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PostPosted: Sat Apr 13, 2013 5:39 am 
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I think Hobie have achieved wonders with the TI ...considering the target price & market.

I think they would be unwise to change the core formula - but instead how about selling a 'performance pack' at a premium price ? that could include longer amas, a jib kit and other improvements ?

A simple example of this being available already is the fins vs turbo fins


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PostPosted: Sat Apr 13, 2013 9:05 am 
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oceanmoves :
My point exactly, The TI as sold currently is a perfect entry level affordable family boat that gives the owners the ability to do much more than just a standard kayak or sailboat, (a really good value). Unfortunately I think the majority of the existing sailing community kind of sticks there nose up at it.
When I first took a TI out for a test ride (back in May 2010) I noted to the dealer that in lower winds the boat was lack luster (not enough sail area) and would be rather boring to sail in low winds (<10mph). He assured to me up and down that Hobie was working on a jib kit option that was soon to be released. This is where my frustration comes from, we have waited, and waited, and waited for something from Hobie to make the boat a little more attractive (with add on options) to more experienced sailers. Just about every other sailboat in there lineup has upgrades for jib kits, spinnaker kits, etc. Not everyone has the knowledge, construction, and sailmaking abilities to make these things themselves like I did 3 yrs ago on my first TI to transform the boat into what I wanted, I understand this. Pretty much everything I have outlined as improvements and options, I did to my own boat a long time ago, and have been just enjoying the boat ever since, If I had to guess how many sailing miles I have on all this stuff, I'm sure it would be over 2500 sailing miles.

I will give a perfect example of a ready to go product that Hobie could release right away. The standard AI/TI version of the Hobie Kayak sail with a simple rotofurler and rigging included in the kit. Hobie already has a bolt on bow brace design (that they used in the 2011 EC). The kit would also include a small aluminum insert that re-enforces the bottom of the mast holder, that would be just dropped in and held down with double stick tape. This piece is necessary because of a weakness in their original mast holder design, but is easily corrected with this simple insert (prevents the 1/4" stud from breaking from forward force). The furlable rotating main mast topper solution has been around for a very long time and is simple and works just fine, this would be included in the kit along with a rear stay line (needed to support additional sails). Since my original 40 sq ft jib wore out, this is all I am currently using (the standard Hobie Kayak sail with a PVC pipe furler). Adding a jib makes a huge difference in the ability of the point up wind, and also with even just the 22 sq ft Hobie kayak sail adds at least a couple mph to your top speed on a TI, probably even more on an AI.
I'm not suggesting Hobie re-design their already great boat, I'm just asking Hobie to start releasing some of the add on kits that were promised a long time ago. Nothing of what I am suggesting would effect the base price or functionality of the current TI. But it would make the boat more attractive to current sailers of boats like Sunfish, Laser, Hunter, Stilletto, etc. In addition the large fleet of TI sailers who have been out enough to realize the boat just doesn't have the sails it badly needs (my opinion of course).
That's all
Bob


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