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 Post subject: Rules? Clew Plate
PostPosted: Sun Jan 27, 2013 8:01 am 
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Location: Ottawa, Canada
I think a clew plate should be allowed on the Wave. It might be already, I don't know. The Getaway comes with one.
Image

I found this exchange in a thread on Mast Rotation:

xanderwess wrote:
Can you interpret that as not being able to use the jib plate in place of a single grommett? If it's angled, then all the holes are within 3" of the original (I think)


Chris,

I'm not sure that a clew plate is really a "grommet". That would be up to someone like Matt Bounds to offer an opinion on. I think it would be better just to allow it like they did on the 16 when it became apparent that there was a simple solution to jib sheet angle.

The Wave sail is very similar to the 16 jib. All you are doing is changing the sheeting angle to put more tension on either the foot or leech as appropriate.

I still don't see a need for mast rotation control.

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Jack Woehrle
Wave #100
H20 #287 "Tallahassee Lassie" (down in FLA)

So I guess my question is "Is a clew plate legal now?" and if not then who's gonna send an email to the IHCA rules committee to copy the rule on the 16 jib clew over to the Wave clew? The part about five holes isn't necessary. A bunch of holes is OK. Who cares?


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 Post subject: Re: Rules? Clew Plate
PostPosted: Fri May 03, 2013 6:12 am 
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I'm replying to my own post. Not because I have the answer but to raise the topic again. The water in the lake is much softer than it was when I originally asked the question. Does anybody know whether I can just take my Hobie sail to a sailmaker and have a clew plate installed? Has anybody done it? Do you have any tips?


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 Post subject: Re: Rules? Clew Plate
PostPosted: Fri May 03, 2013 8:43 am 
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BigWhoop wrote:
I'm replying to my own post. Not because I have the answer but to raise the topic again. The water in the lake is much softer than it was when I originally asked the question. Does anybody know whether I can just take my Hobie sail to a sailmaker and have a clew plate installed? Has anybody done it? Do you have any tips?


My opinion is that it isn't HCA legal. I wish Matt would weigh in on it.

I would like to see it either judged or made legal.

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Jack Woehrle
Wave #100
H20 #287 "Tallahassee Lassie" (down in FLA)


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 Post subject: Re: Rules? Clew Plate
PostPosted: Mon May 06, 2013 6:35 am 
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Location: Detroit, MI
It's in IHCA Rule 1:

Quote:
1. ONE-DESIGN CLASS RACING The design and development of Hobie Catamarans are directed towards strict one-design classes where the true test is between sailors and sailing skill, and not boats. Any alterations to the hull form, construction, equipment, spars, sails or running rigging, as supplied by the builder except as is specifically authorized by these rules, are a breach of these rules, both in spirit and in substance, and are prohibited.

Read the italicized part as one sentence - Any alterations to the . . sails . . . as supplied by the builder except as is specifically authorized by these rules, are a breach of these rules, both in spirit and in substance, and are prohibited.

The clew plate is not specifically authorized in the Wave Class Rules, so it's not legal.

So change the rule. Write a submission, get Pat Porter to bless it, and send it to the IHCA Rules Committee chair, Erik Olsen (olsen.e@gmail.com). It may take a while, but then it will be done.


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 Post subject: Re: Rules? Clew Plate
PostPosted: Mon May 06, 2013 7:01 am 
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MBounds wrote:
It's in IHCA Rule 1:



The clew plate is not specifically authorized in the Wave Class Rules, so it's not legal.

So change the rule. Write a submission, get Pat Porter to bless it, and send it to the IHCA Rules Committee chair, Erik Olsen (olsen.e@gmail.com). It may take a while, but then it will be done.


Thanks for your expert opinion Matt.

We need to get on it now...who wants to write it up?

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Jack Woehrle
Wave #100
H20 #287 "Tallahassee Lassie" (down in FLA)


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 Post subject: Re: Rules? Clew Plate
PostPosted: Mon May 06, 2013 7:57 am 
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How come you're staring at me when you say that?

But since I started this I guess I'll have a shot at cribbing the 16 jib rule over to the Wave, post it here for peer review (that would be you), and then off to the rules committee.

Stay tuned. Film at eleven.


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 Post subject: Re: Rules? Clew Plate
PostPosted: Mon May 06, 2013 9:44 am 
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Here's the existing 16 clew plate rule:
3.1 A jib clew plate, measuring not more than 8 in. (20.32 cm) at its longest point and containing not more than five adjustment holes, may be added to the jib.
a) A maximum of 1-1/2 in. (38.1 mm) of sail, measured diagonally, may be removed from the jib for installation of the clew plate.
b) A grommet, measuring not more that 1-1/2 in. (38.1 mm) at the inside diameter, may be placed at the clew of the jib in place of the jib plate.

And here's the existing Wave Sail rule:
3. SAILS
3.1 Mainsail downhaul purchase shall not exceed 3:1and may be rigged in any manner.
3.2 Reefing of any sail is permitted. Reefing design shall be open provided it does not structurally weaken the boat or interfere with basic functions of HOBIE CAT CO. supplied components.

So I figure if we just add in:
3.3 A jib clew plate, measuring not more than 8 in. (20.32 cm) at its longest point may be added to the sail.
a) A maximum of 2-1/2 in. (63.5 mm) of sail, measured diagonally, may be removed from the jib for installation of the clew plate.

I took out the part about five holes since who cares. If you want one of these your sailmaker will sell you whatever he has, three holes, five holes, whatever.

I had a three hole 5 1/2 inch clew plate in my toolbox, so I traced out an 8 inch long one and lay it on my sail and I got 2 1/2 inches from the very outside of the fabric around the grommet to the inside edge of the plate. I think an 8 inch long clew plate would be wider than the mock up I made so 2 1/2 should be plenty. From my point of view of somebody wants to remove area from the clew of their sail that's fine.

Image

I left out the part of adding a grommet to replace the clew plate. If, at some point in the future, the factory starts building sails with a clew plate then somebody else can write the rule for replacing the clew plate with a grommet. Right now it doesn't have any meaning.


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 Post subject: Re: Rules? Clew Plate
PostPosted: Mon May 06, 2013 5:41 pm 
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BigWhoop wrote:
So I figure if we just add in:
3.3 A jib clew plate, measuring not more than 8 in. (20.32 cm) at its longest point may be added to the sail.
a) A maximum of 2-1/2 in. (63.5 mm) of cloth , measured diagonally, may be removed from the SAIL for installation of the clew plate.


Excellent!! One slight correction.

Good job.

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Jack Woehrle
Wave #100
H20 #287 "Tallahassee Lassie" (down in FLA)


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 Post subject: Re: Rules? Clew Plate
PostPosted: Mon May 06, 2013 8:10 pm 
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Joined: Wed Nov 14, 2007 6:53 am
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Location: Dunedin, FL
Quote:
So I figure if we just add in:
3.3 A jib clew plate, measuring not more than 8 in. (20.32 cm) at its longest point may be added to the sail.
a) A maximum of 2-1/2 in. (63.5 mm) of cloth , measured diagonally, may be removed from the SAIL for installation of the clew plate.


Why are you using the word "jib" in this sentance? You're wanting to add this to the main, correct? In the process of developing the rule for the H16 they MEANT to add it to the jib, right? Otherwise since Hobie sells a jib for the Wave you might be unintentionally implying it's to go on the jib instead of your actual goal. Why not just say "clew plate" or add the word "main sail" instead of just "sail"?

Or have I lost my mind?


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 Post subject: Re: Rules? Clew Plate
PostPosted: Mon May 06, 2013 9:30 pm 
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Yeah, good point. That's the downside of the cut and paste method. So here we are:

3.3 A clew plate, measuring not more than 8 in. (20.32 cm) at its longest point may be added to the sail.
a) A maximum of 2-1/2 in. (63.5 mm) of cloth , measured diagonally, may be removed from the sail for installation of the clew plate.

I don't have to specify the main sail I don't think because we are talking about racing rules and race boats, well Wave race boats, don't have jibs. Right?


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 Post subject: Re: Rules? Clew Plate
PostPosted: Tue May 07, 2013 6:16 am 
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Location: Dunedin, FL
Most main clew plates from boomless boats I've sailed are not angled. They lie fore and aft along the foot of the sail. Look at a Nacra 5.0. or 5.7. Nacra went so far as to add a traveler car on the 5.5 to the clew attachment although many people found that unnecessary. Lots of thought has gone into mainsail clewplate designs in the past.

I'd suggest you look at other boomless boats and their class rules before you rush to press with a cut-and-paste from a Hobie jib clew setup. To find what's BEST for the Wave's sail geometry why not try to find a sail designer to look at the sail/mast/hull/rudders in total and do the best thing, not try to guess at what might work and set it in stone in the class rules based on an ancient Hobie 16 jib model. Do it right and ask an expert. THEN settle on a box rule and allow it in the rules.

How about asking The Hobie design team? They like it for the Getaway.
Randy Smyth?
Calvert or North Sails?
Morrelli & Melvin? (Ask about their all carbon foiling Wave!)


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 Post subject: Re: Rules? Clew Plate
PostPosted: Tue May 07, 2013 9:37 am 
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Joined: Sun Nov 04, 2007 7:58 am
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Image
Hobie 16 factory Jib Clew Plate

Image
North Sails Clew Plate

In my opinion, we should use the Hobie factory clew plate sold for the 16 jib, Hobie Part # 22240000.

Image

That will maintain the one-design aspect and stay within the Hobie proprietary philosophy. It should not be open to experimentation and exploitation.

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Jack Woehrle
Wave #100
H20 #287 "Tallahassee Lassie" (down in FLA)


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 Post subject: Re: Rules? Clew Plate
PostPosted: Tue May 07, 2013 12:01 pm 
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Joined: Wed Nov 14, 2007 6:53 am
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Location: Dunedin, FL
Makes sense, Jack. However, since the Getaway jib uses a 5-hole plate maybe you should consider that one. Are they of an adequate gauge material? The strain on the mainsail would be much higher than on a jib. Hobie might offer an opinion here.

I personally like the linear clew plate on my Nacra 5.0. Moving the mainblock attachment point forward allows a much stronger "outhaul" pull on a boomless rig and offers a high wind advantage and some roatation control. Again, Nacra settled on that fore-'n-aft design years ago and stuck with it for many, many boats. Must be a reason. Can anyone name a single cat using an angled clewplate on a main sail? Dart? Supercat? Mystere? GCat? Lots of boomless boats to look at but I've never seen an angled one, ever. And I've owned all of the above named boats.

I still say, ask a sail plan designer. It's a sophisticated science (art? black magic?). Why guess without any testing, CAD or on the water, and lock it into class rules?


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 Post subject: Re: Rules? Clew Plate
PostPosted: Wed May 08, 2013 12:23 am 
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Location: BC, Canada
I found this image from a guy trying to sell a Nacra 5.5 mainsail:

Image


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 Post subject: Re: Rules? Clew Plate
PostPosted: Wed May 08, 2013 7:13 am 
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Norm742 wrote:
I found this image from a guy trying to sell a Nacra 5.5 mainsail:

Image


The Hobie Getaway uses the same clew plate as the 16 jib.

I still say "KISS" (keep it simple stupid).

Image

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Jack Woehrle
Wave #100
H20 #287 "Tallahassee Lassie" (down in FLA)


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