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PostPosted: Tue Jun 11, 2013 11:05 pm 
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Agreed KB, no perfect answer, as I made clear in my write up I just linked to. But I'd rather the possibility of an aka breakage than a near certain capsize out at sea should the pin shear. Both are potential safety issues I guess, but to my way of thinking one much more so than the other. I'll add here now that what you have described here is the first I have heard of that ever happening (and as someone who has sold AIs for years that should count for something) but I have heard of shear pins shearing for no apparent reason numerous times. In other words, which scenario is more likely to occur? I can answer that question pretty safely.

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PostPosted: Wed Jun 12, 2013 2:05 am 
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Having experienced a broken shear pin, I agree with Josh. However, I wonder if there is a possible compromise possible, by wsay of a pin which has a breaking limit between the stock plastic and a 1/4" SS bolt.

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PostPosted: Wed Jun 12, 2013 2:45 am 
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Just to keep this in perspective... a capsize/pitchpole in an Island is an extremely rare event. In 5 years of AI sailing and 3 years of TI sailing we haven't really come close to either. Have been involved in 2 AI collisions that resulted in collapsed leeward aka in strong winds, but even then no capsize.
Tramps are the best fix for preventing unexpected aka collapses and if used with haka/hiking out then the risk of the tramp catching the wind and contributing to a capsize is negligible. Using common sense and furling the sail when the wind picks up also helps!


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PostPosted: Wed Jun 12, 2013 10:31 am 
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I agree with Stringy. What Shrrissmith describes is equipment failure followed by a capsize. I think calling it a "pitchpole" is the wrong terminology. Anyone who has sailed a Hobie 16 knows what a true pitchpole is.

The discussion here has been helpful.

Keith

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PostPosted: Wed Jun 12, 2013 5:27 pm 
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Agreed Stringy and Chekika. I am yet to see an AI pitchpole, or even capsize for the matter, and I've spent a hell of a lot of time on the water in an AI. Of course I have heard of it happening a number of times though. I have had a pin shear on me, though luckily it was on the windward side, so no real problem arose. And yes Chekika, a sheared pin on the leeward side will likely result in a capsize in reasonable strength winds, but I can't see how it would contribute to an actual pitchpole event.

I think for those concerned about the potential implications of using a S/S bolt should consider inspecting and replacing the shear pins regularly.

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PostPosted: Wed Jun 12, 2013 11:56 pm 
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If you don't wish to use tramps, you can also guard against ama collapse (or fix it after it has occurred), with two pieces of rope on each side in an X formation, to diagonally brace the akas. As I recall, this was first suggested by Yakaholic some time ago. I tried it on one occasion and it worked fine.

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PostPosted: Thu Jun 13, 2013 1:00 am 
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stringy wrote:
Just to keep this in perspective... a capsize/pitchpole in an Island is an extremely rare event. In 5 years of AI sailing and 3 years of TI sailing we haven't really come close to either. Have been involved in 2 AI collisions that resulted in collapsed leeward aka in strong winds, but even then no capsize.
Let's go for a quick spin on the TI, Stringy. No worries, I'll show you how it's done. :lol:


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PostPosted: Sat Jun 15, 2013 3:21 am 
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NOHUHU wrote:
Let's go for a quick spin on the TI, Stringy. No worries, I'll show you how it's done. :lol:



:lol: :lol: :lol:

"The last one to capsize their TI is a loser"!

Nohuhu,
For some reason your generous offer reminds me of this ad! :wink: :lol:


(the other ads in that series are pretty good as well.)


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PostPosted: Sun Jun 16, 2013 6:50 am 
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My shear pins snapped in my TI once already, but what kept my akas from coming in , was the fact that I had hakas. The hakas are strapped to the front and and rear akas independently of each other.It only slid back the ama about 6 inches. Needless to say I managed to replace the pin in 3ft waves with ease.


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PostPosted: Sun Jun 16, 2013 8:16 pm 
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Yakass wrote:
Agreed Stringy and Chekika. I am yet to see an AI pitchpole, or even capsize for the matter, and I've spent a hell of a lot of time on the water in an AI.

Last summer my Nephew and I were out on an AI in extremely strong winds and we pitchpoled. Believe me, it is possible although before that incident I didn't think it was possible. He was incorrectly sitting forward on the trampoline of the leeward tramp which contributed to the event.

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PostPosted: Sun Jun 16, 2013 9:04 pm 
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Jim,

Here is a picture of my port ama running about 4-6" under water. I never had any feeling that I might pitch pole--never crossed my mind.
Image

How deep do you think your ama was? And, with your Nephew forward on the tramp, is it possible that it (the ama) might have been so deep that the water caught the front corner of the tramp causing the pitch pole?

Keith

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PostPosted: Sun Jun 16, 2013 9:54 pm 
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It's usually more of a downwind occurrence Keith, but I can happen at any time. Even upwind in waves. Sail out on the Leeward Haka for a while and you'll probably do it.

If you want a crash course, it only takes a few runs on a Hobie 16 to perfect the technique. Maybe just one on the trifoiler. :lol:

Good chuckle stringy, thanks.


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PostPosted: Mon Jun 17, 2013 6:21 am 
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NOHUHU, I used to watch my Hobie 16 (sail #496) lee hull all the time. When it started to dive, it was always a question whether I could spill the wind before pitch poleing. My son, who, with his sister, was often flying a trapeze, recently said he always hated to pitch pole.

Keith

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PostPosted: Mon Jun 17, 2013 6:45 am 
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This would be a greater expense for Hobie than the simple break-away plastic bolt, but I have been running an idea through my head about using a sort of shock absorber for the aka brace. Something that would give upon impact, but retain enough pressure so that in anything less than a sudden impact it would keep everything where it should be.

The first front shocks offered on bicycles were nothing more than tubes which contained rubber cylinders of varying densities. Even a section of something like that within the aka brace might prove to provide adequate shock absorption to present damage while still keeping the akas where they need to be under even heavy seas. The key would be that there were never be a complete failure of the brace, which could then result in any sort of immediate emergency.

My only experience with a near pitch-pole in the TI came a few days ago when I jibed sharply downwind in heavy wind and swells and noted the inside ama was not only a foot underwater, but angled downwards as well. It didn't pitchpole, but I remember thinking, "No wonder big spinnakers can get people into trouble."


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PostPosted: Mon Jun 17, 2013 6:54 am 
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Chekika wrote:
Jim,Here is a picture of my port ama running about 4-6" under water. I never had any feeling that I might pitch pole--never crossed my mind.
Keith
Keith, before that day I never in my wildest dreams thought it would be possible either. Especially after experiencing so many submarine moments with the AI.

I honestly didn't have time to analyze all the conditions as we were going over. The line to the mainsail wasn't in hand at the time and was momentarily paralyzed with fear and disbelief while the back of the boat started lifting into the air. If I had the sheet in my hand and released the sail all would have been fine. Lesson learned.

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