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 Post subject: Re: Rules? Clew Plate
PostPosted: Wed May 08, 2013 9:10 am 
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Personally, I'm not in favor of anything that makes the Wave more complicated. In addition... causing a sailor to have to alter the boat which is a cost, capability issue for some. Allowed changes should be for ease of use (better down hauls). Even if the clew plate really doesn't make a performance difference, there is a perceived advantage some will feel... again, it divides the fleet.

Hiking sticks are different, we changed the length of the tiller arms causing a difference between old and new rudder versions. Hiking sticks level that field a bit.

KISS

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 Post subject: Re: Rules? Clew Plate
PostPosted: Wed May 08, 2013 9:12 am 
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Through the magic of Photoshop:
'Image

and Jack already put up the Getaway angled clew plate. There's a couple of things. The rule is intended to say what you can do. Then, inside that, you can do what you want. If you want a flat clew plate go ahead. If you want two end to end, hmmm actually that wouldn't be allowed, as it's written clew plate is singular. Or if you want an angled clew plate and have to cut off a bit of cloth so you can get the hook to drop in then that's allowed too. So I think it's perfect the way it is, now that you guys have corrected my errors.

On a related issue. It looks like the Getaway and the NACRA clew plate have grommets through the holes that help to keep the whole works together. I think that's a dandy idea. What my sailmaker is offering me is a flat plate on each side of the sail with a hole all the way through. I like the grommet idea. Any idea where I could get that done? Not counting either of NACRA or Hobie, I'm assuming they aren't interested in installing an aftermarket clew plate for me.


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 Post subject: Re: Rules? Clew Plate
PostPosted: Sat May 11, 2013 8:31 am 
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I looked at the IWCA rules (evil twin of the IHCA :D ).
They already have specific language allowing for a clew plate.

http://www.catsailor.com/waves/wave_const.html

10.8 A clew plate may be added replacing the clew grommet. It may be placed vertically up the leech from the clew point, horizontally along the foot from the clew point, or angled. Only one clew plate is allowed. (Two plates attached together through the sail material is recognized as " a clew plate".


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 Post subject: Re: Rules? Clew Plate
PostPosted: Tue May 14, 2013 6:24 am 
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mmiller wrote:
Personally, I'm not in favor of anything that makes the Wave more complicated. In addition... causing a sailor to have to alter the boat which is a cost, capability issue for some. Allowed changes should be for ease of use (better down hauls). Even if the clew plate really doesn't make a performance difference, there is a perceived advantage some will feel... again, it divides the fleet.

Hiking sticks are different, we changed the length of the tiller arms causing a difference between old and new rudder versions. Hiking sticks level that field a bit.

KISS


I agree with most of this, except .... Once upon a time I went to the Hobie 18 World's. I took my hiking stick. When I went to the IWCA Nationals I took two complete rudder systems, the tiller connector, the tiller extension, and two sails. But I think that horse has already sailed to mix a metaphor. For most of the Wave racers I think the boat is an inexpensive race boat with a bunch of simplicity. I'd say the top half of a Wave fleet has the $1500 rudder "downgrade" to pre-2005 rudder assemblies, a $200 mainsheet upgrade, and probably a nice crisp new $1100 sail. Plus spares. What we're discussing here is a $50 modification that can be done by your local sailmaker. In my case by my local tent maker, but that's just me.

Let's get the cheap one out of the way and then we can discuss downhauls. I asked that question in this forum and got the answer, IIRC, that it was probably OK for IHCA but not for IWCA. I think a downhaul with a jammer, like any normal downhaul, would be interesting for a while and then .... let's leave that out of this discussion. We'll get back to it. As for clew plates a rule change is necessary and I think it's cheap and we have the wording. Time to take it to the NAHCA and IHCA?


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 Post subject: Re: Rules? Clew Plate
PostPosted: Tue May 14, 2013 10:34 am 
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I don't agree about making a "simple" change because the IWCA allows big changes in their rules (custom sails). Still requires a sailor to have access to a sail maker to make the change. It's a hassle and makes a boat out of the box different.

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 Post subject: Re: Rules? Clew Plate
PostPosted: Wed May 15, 2013 7:48 am 
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mmiller wrote:
I don't agree about making a "simple" change because the IWCA allows big changes in their rules (custom sails). Still requires a sailor to have access to a sail maker to make the change. It's a hassle and makes a boat out of the box different.


I don't think this question is linked to anything the IWCA does or has done.

It is simply a fact that the HCA Wave has become a popular race boat and this is an easy way to compensate for slight differences is the stocks sails, either by manufacturing tolerances or sail aging.

An extra grommet IS legal and that would take a trip to a sailmaker to do it properly. Why is that different than a clew plate.

The Getaway has one installed at the factory. Maybe it would be a good idea for that to be a production change for the Wave going forward.

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Jack Woehrle
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 Post subject: Re: Rules? Clew Plate
PostPosted: Wed May 15, 2013 9:30 am 
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Mugrace72 wrote:
Maybe it would be a good idea for that to be a production change for the Wave going forward.


Not something we would do to the Wave. It is meant to be VERY simple out of the box. Every complexity added is... confusion to a new sailor.

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 Post subject: Re: Rules? Clew Plate
PostPosted: Wed May 15, 2013 10:38 am 
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mmiller wrote:
Mugrace72 wrote:
Maybe it would be a good idea for that to be a production change for the Wave going forward.


Not something we would do to the Wave. It is meant to be VERY simple out of the box. Every complexity added is... confusion to a new sailor.


I think we who race them understand the conundrum Hobie Cat faces.

We are only asking for ways to make an inequity more manageable for the 5% who might race a Wave (sails).

I am not party to the downhaul or traveler talk. Those things are fine the way they are. We don't need changes there.

Thanks for producing the Wave in the first place!

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Jack Woehrle
Wave #100
H20 #287 "Tallahassee Lassie" (down in FLA)


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 Post subject: Re: Rules? Clew Plate
PostPosted: Wed May 15, 2013 11:21 am 
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Quote:
I think we who race them understand the conundrum Hobie Cat faces.

We are only asking for ways to make an inequity more manageable for the 5% who might race a Wave (sails).

I am not party to the downhaul or traveler talk. Those things are fine the way they are. We don't need changes there.

Thanks for producing the Wave in the first place!


Agreed! I am on record, here someplace as being against the downhaul, and I'm ready to be against the traveller. And the jib for that matter.

But I surely do love having a boat to race and other folk to race with as I grow more decrepit. But since HCA can put the clew plate on a Getaway, .... no, forget it, I didn't say that.


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 Post subject: Re: Rules? Clew Plate
PostPosted: Wed May 15, 2013 1:30 pm 
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BigWhoop wrote:
But since HCA can put the clew plate on a Getaway, .... no, forget it, I didn't say that.


Just to be clear. The clew plate was standard on the Getaway from Day one.

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Hobie Cat USA


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 Post subject: Re: Rules? Clew Plate
PostPosted: Tue Jun 18, 2013 5:54 am 
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As suggested this proposed rule change was submitted to Mr. Pat Porter Chair of the Board of Directors of the NAHCA, and has now been forwarded to the IHCA Rules Committee.

Middelfart, DENMARK, June 17, 2013 Hobie Cat Wave sailors, IHCA Council members and IHCA Regional Associations. IHCA Rules Committee New Hobie Cat Wave rule 3.3
The IHCA Rules Committee has received a rule change request from the Hobie Class Association North America suggesting an addition to the Hobie Cat Wave class rules as follows:
PROPOSAL:
Add new rule 3.3: A clew plate, measuring not more than 8 in. (20.32 cm) at its longest point may be added to the sail. A maximum of 2-1/2 in. (63.5 mm) of cloth, measured diagonally, may be removed from the sail for installation of the clew plate.
CURRENT POSITION:
N/A
REASON FOR CHANGE:
The change would allow for increased control of sail shape. This would be beneficial to adjust for slight variances in sail construction and to make adjustments as a sail ages.
The proposal is hereby distributed for comments according to General Class Rule 24. Comments to be sent to: rules@hobieclass.com. Please state your full name and the Hobie Association/Fleet you are a paid up member of when making your comment. Deadline: August 1, 2013.
The proposed change will go into effect as of October 1, 2013 if accepted.
Erik Olsen
IHCA Rules Committee Chair

Hobie Cat Co. comment:
As the manufacturer of the Wave we are not very interested seeing this proposal accepted. The design of the Wave was to be as simple as and as user friendly as possible. Adding a multi-holed clew plate goes somewhat against the original design concept and would require upgrades on the thousands of boats we have made over the past 20 years building this product.
Ultimately this decision remains with the IHCA but it is fairly certain that if passed the product we would provide for sale (sail) would remain the same as currently supplied.


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 Post subject: Re: Rules? Clew Plate
PostPosted: Tue Jun 18, 2013 3:32 pm 
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BigWhoop wrote:
Hobie Cat Co. comment:
As the manufacturer of the Wave we are not very interested seeing this proposal accepted. The design of the Wave was to be as simple as and as user friendly as possible. Adding a multi-holed clew plate goes somewhat against the original design concept and would require upgrades on the thousands of boats we have made over the past 20 years building this product.
Ultimately this decision remains with the IHCA but it is fairly certain that if passed the product we would provide for sale (sail) would remain the same as currently supplied.



I am surprised that Hobie Cat would take a stand on a simple proposal that would help deflate the IWCA claim that the Wave sails are not equal.

No one is asking Hobie Cat to change their production standards. This is a simple field change that anyone can do.

It is not going to create an arms race with new technology. It would not "require upgrades on thousands of boats". There are no more than 100 Waves total that are sailing at the higher levels of Hobie Cat racing.

We can only wish there were "thousands"!

Hobie might even reap a small profit from the sale of clew plates.

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Jack Woehrle
Wave #100
H20 #287 "Tallahassee Lassie" (down in FLA)


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 Post subject: Re: Rules? Clew Plate
PostPosted: Tue Jun 18, 2013 3:39 pm 
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This is the key statement from us:

Quote:
Ultimately this decision remains with the IHCA


Then to clarify:

Quote:
if passed(,) the product we would provide for sale (sail) would remain the same as currently supplied.

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Matt Miller
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Hobie Cat USA


Last edited by mmiller on Wed Jun 19, 2013 12:06 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Rules? Clew Plate
PostPosted: Wed Jun 19, 2013 8:20 am 
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mmiller wrote:
This is the key statement from us:

Quote:
Ultimately this decision remains with the IHCA


Then to clarify:

Quote:
if passed(,) the product we would provide for sale (sail) would remain the same as currently supplied.


Thank you Matt

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Jack Woehrle
Wave #100
H20 #287 "Tallahassee Lassie" (down in FLA)


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 Post subject: Re: Rules? Clew Plate
PostPosted: Sun Jul 14, 2013 5:28 am 
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The deadline for you to weigh in for or against the clew plate is in two weeks, 1 August. This is what I sent to rules@hobieclass.com

I am in favour of the inclusion of rule 3.3 allowing a clew plate on the Wave sail. The change would allow for increased control of sail shape to adjust for slight variances in sail construction and to make adjustments as a sail ages. And to give the sail more fullness to make adjustment as the skipper ages and possibly adds a few pounds. There is no implication that Hobie Cat should start installing clew plates on new boats. A very few, too few, boats are ever raced and of those very few will feel the need to modify their sail. For the very, very few who feel that need this rule allows that to happen. Thank you for attention to this matter. Have a Hobie day!

Charles Smith
NAHCA #14220
Hobie Fleet 298


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