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 Post subject: SUPER AMAS on TI
PostPosted: Fri Jun 21, 2013 1:13 pm 
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Location: Aussie living in San Diego, CA
Just dreaming folks....

Well no doubt that got your attention anyway :wink:

I was intrigued by the TI3 that NOHUHU and friends built - no doubt some others have done something similar too - I seem to recall someone making some s/steel akas. I have had similar thoughts about the wasted real estate on a TI since I recently bought one. Last weekend I put trampolines and the new Hobie hiking stick on the TI and that really emphasized the point for me as I was sitting in rear seat and only my forward passenger had access to the Tramps and hiking stick ! ) unless I awkwardly climbed forward and over to the trampoline ) I realized that the TI can only really be sailed from the front seat if I want to take advantage of balancing weight on the tramps even if sailing alone.

That stirred up the creative juices in me (they come and guy like hot flashes so I have to grab them when they come along) - I quickly visualized the TI with an extra standard Hobie Aka set behind the rear seat - looks like it could be mounted there OK . I remembered that NOHUHU and friends had used what appeared to be a clever canti-lever system to support a set of tramps at the rear of the TI and my mind went a slightly different direction. What if I could find a way to put a longer SUPER AMA on the TI that enabled the 3rd set of akas to connect into? That would be cool and my guess would be that it would add a measure of flotation to the TI at the same time which would also be good. It may even strengthen the boat and improve the safety factor. Additional weight of aka and ama would be countered acted by the increased flotation. It may also help reduce the submerging of the stern when loaded up. Can't see Hobie doing this anytime soon so I'm thinking I would have to construct my own out of marine ply or similar. It would need to be at least 15ft (maybe 16ft) long (compared to current amas of 13.5ft). But is still less than the kayak length so transporting and storing should be doable and maybe even folding would be too. Years ago I built a 16ft canoe using ply stitch and glue method and that would seem the route to go.

Cons would seem to be weight, storage, aesthetics, not to mention the cost and time to build.

Another possibility might be to get hold of an old used pair of TI amas and then cut and join ( by plastic welding and s/steel braces perhaps) the two amas to form one SUPER AMA . I just felt some gasps from the forum members that I would even consider doing that to a perfectly good ama :shock: Don't worry I'm not about to get out the saw....... :roll:

Before I allow my creative mind any further room to ponder this idea - has anyone built what I call a SUPER AMA for their TI? I would love to hear about that and any other suggestions to enable trampoline sailing from the rear seat of the TI ......

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 Post subject: Re: SUPER AMAS on TI
PostPosted: Fri Jun 21, 2013 1:49 pm 
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Location: High Point, NC
I haven't but if I was going to do it I'm make a box form and use expanding urethane foam for the ama body. Then carve/sand it to final shape. If you were to use something along the lines of a 10lb to 12lb density, you might could get away with just painting it. With the lighter 8lb, you'd probably want to skin it with a thin glass or carbon for surface hardness.

The stuff is fairly easy to work with. We've talked about making a kayak body out of it and trying out some ideas we've had floating around these past few years.


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 Post subject: Re: SUPER AMAS on TI
PostPosted: Fri Jun 21, 2013 1:55 pm 
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Location: Kailua 96734
Matt must have been hiding those, the day you toured the Hobie factory. :wink:

But if you can't wait, I think you'd need to build them from Fglass. The trick with plastic would be matching the graduated curve of the Amas, extending their stern at least 2 feet and making the structure safe. And of course the 3rd Aka set needs to reach, and secure them. Then you need to customize the tramps.

Risky and $$$ with the original plastic ones. Very feasible with glass or wood though. Even inflatables, I would think. Would the boat still be foldable and trailerable? Maybe.

We feel that Hakas or wings in the back work better and are safer than tramps, which we also tried. So if you concentrate on building a wing seat back there first, you'll love it and you'll be taking the "TI3" concept to a new level.


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 Post subject: Re: SUPER AMAS on TI
PostPosted: Tue Jun 25, 2013 2:18 pm 
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Location: Cape Coral, FL
something must be wrong with your boat, i sit in the rear seat and use the tramps or hakas all the time.

Image

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2011 Golden Papaya TI with a 250 square foot spinnaker!
also a more manageable 100 square foot spinny...
&
the TI3 rear ama mod


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 Post subject: Re: SUPER AMAS on TI
PostPosted: Wed Jun 26, 2013 10:55 pm 
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Location: Aussie living in San Diego, CA
kayakman7 wrote:
something must be wrong with your boat, i sit in the rear seat and use the tramps or hakas all the time.
:lol: well thanks Kayakman7 - looking at your photo clearly I am missing something that the Hobie dealer forgot to include with TI :wink: Can you show the photo of the rear cross bar or maybe the thread that you may have already shown this mod?

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 Post subject: Re: SUPER AMAS on TI
PostPosted: Thu Jun 27, 2013 2:52 am 
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Very sly Jesse! I've been waiting for your "coming out" party! :mrgreen:

(This is what Batman calls, SUPER SIDEKICK MODE).

We would love to see the video from that spinnaker run.


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 Post subject: Re: SUPER AMAS on TI
PostPosted: Thu Jun 27, 2013 4:10 am 
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Location: Forster, NSW, Australia
Aussie, as a standard TI ama supports 150kg already, I am not sure any extra flotation is needed. ( Kayakman's rearward position of the standard aka/ama setup looks like the business though). Tell us more kayakman!!

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 Post subject: Re: SUPER AMAS on TI
PostPosted: Fri Jun 28, 2013 7:13 pm 
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Location: Cape Coral, FL
NOHUHU wrote:
Very sly Jesse! I've been waiting for your "coming out" party! :mrgreen:

(This is what Batman calls, SUPER SIDEKICK MODE).

We would love to see the video from that spinnaker run.


Well, you asked...

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pURqgsklZFw&feature=youtu.be[/youtube]

Shortly after making this mod I bought my tamanu and started preparing for the EC2013 hardcore. I've only used it in this configuration a few times.

Cheers,

j

ps take a gander at the video of this years challenge.



look for my video at 20:50, 28:18, 30:59, 1:25:05, 1:35:30, 1:35:55 minutes.
dogslife has a bunch of video in it also, but i don't know where...
see some pics of the tamanu here: https://www.dropbox.com/sh/u1zorwxxs4h9a9m/LVuurFAb62
:( she is for sale :(

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2011 Golden Papaya TI with a 250 square foot spinnaker!
also a more manageable 100 square foot spinny...
&
the TI3 rear ama mod


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 Post subject: Re: SUPER AMAS on TI
PostPosted: Sun Jun 30, 2013 10:24 am 
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Location: Aussie living in San Diego, CA
kayakman7 thanks for the videos - the challenge was really good - I watched it last night - gives you a much better perspective of the real challenge. The spinnaker looks a bit scary but obviously exhilerating. With moving the amas back I think I see that you reversed the akas and probably installed another rear Hobie aka bar at the correct spacing behind the rear seat - is that correct? I also notice that you have reversed the bracing on what now is the forward aka (previously the rear aka) and am curious as to why or was the bracing forward facing on earlier TI's?

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 Post subject: Re: SUPER AMAS on TI
PostPosted: Sun Jun 30, 2013 6:48 pm 
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Location: Cape Coral, FL
I reversed the akas so that the braces, buckles, and other stuff weren't in the way when boarding after swimming. I replaced the braces with longer ones and moved the mounts to in front of the forward hatch when the akas are in the forward position. When the akas are in the rear position, the braces mount next to the front seat. The braces are also at a better angle for resisting collapsing now that they are longer.

The rear aka center is actually my old forward aka center with the roller cut off. I had cracks forming and Hobie replaced the bar. Since I had the bar already, adding the third center bar behind the rear seat was as rather obvious. It has provided an excellent location to mount the cam cleats for the spinnaker and the running back-stay.

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2011 Golden Papaya TI with a 250 square foot spinnaker!
also a more manageable 100 square foot spinny...
&
the TI3 rear ama mod


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 Post subject: Re: SUPER AMAS on TI
PostPosted: Mon Dec 08, 2014 7:42 pm 
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Location: Santa Rosa, California
What's the down side to having the Ama's in the rear position ? Are there any ?


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 Post subject: Re: SUPER AMAS on TI
PostPosted: Tue Dec 09, 2014 12:36 pm 
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Holy crapballs, you just blew my mind. I had to read this two or three times to make sense of it.

The forward braces...a perfect frame for sprayskirts (especially when the akas are in the fwd position).

Where...how...so many questions. I want to add to cart.

-rh

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 Post subject: Re: SUPER AMAS on TI
PostPosted: Tue Dec 09, 2014 12:59 pm 
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Joined: Sun Apr 20, 2008 6:18 am
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Location: Sarasota,Key West FL
I too only ever sit in the front seat when solo, this allows be to go out on the AMA's and balance the boat trying to keep the stupid AMA's out of the water. Like you I feel totally trapped just sitting in the back seat, and its hard to do the center board, and control all my extra sails and rigging from the back seat.

However I had for a while a heavy duty tramp/spray skirt system on the boat that did work out pretty well for hiking out from the back seat. Well I had it for a while but never used it, so it got recycled into new front spray skirts, when my old front spray skirts wore out. I mostly only used them in the winter when my daughter would come down from Chicago over the holiday season, she would go out sailing with me often, but always complained about getting splashed by the cold water when in the rear seat in the winter (we don't have that problem in the summer LOL), so I made them for her.
I kind of modeled the spray skirt system similar to what you see on the Windrider 17's. Both the front and rear spray skirts are super heavy duty and you can sit on them or stow gear on them. I'm kind of cheap so I ended up using just standard heavy duty screen material (the kind they sell for pets at Home Depot), I then got some of those 4 ft orange 3/8 dia fiberglass rods (home Depot, they are about $2-$3 bucks ea). The rear skirt is about 3 ft wide at the front, and hooks through the regular tramp straps (just loops of paracord looped thru the tramp straps, and around the 3/8 rod). The inside I secured the inner 3/8 rod to the rear AKA brace, tied to the rear handles, and had a piece of para cord running across the hull just behind the rear seat (tying the two rear skirts together). The connecting leg that formed a triangle shape when from the outer edge on the front, then tapered to a point where the rod holder are forming a triangle spray skirt. I ran a 1/4" nylon rope through some 3/8 PVS water pipe where I tied the back around my motor mount (the motor mount is just 1 1/4 PVC sitting in the rear rod holders), then at the front I tied a small loop of spectra string that wraps around the rear AKA bar, then slips over the tabs (the tabs that hold the AMA bungy's on). to break the boat down, you just unhook the tramps, and lift that loop off the bungy tab, then fold the skirt over the hull for transport.
The reason I use the screen material vs tramp material is the wind blows thru the screen material much more easily, and doesn't become a kite. However the screen material only blocks 90% of the water, some small spray still gets thru. I suppose in areas where you need to reduce splash more than normal you can put a double layer of pet screen in (it's outdoor screen, so no issues with sun and water exposure).
Once you have the outside structure it's pretty easy to add the screen material, you just cut it out 3 inches larger per side than needed, fold it over the 3/8 rods, then hot glue the seam. In the high stress areas (like the corners), I usually sew in some fishing line with a needle and thread before applying the hot glue.
Of course you have to have the super heavy duty spray skirt on the front of the boat also, the 1/4 nylon line for that goes from the bow to a clip that clips onto that stainless cleat in the center of the AMA. Once you have both front and rear spray skirts on, you no longer need the regular ama brace so I typically just leave that in it's parked position so it is out of the way. The front spray skirts work the same way, I just unclip one clip then fold the skirt over the hull for transport. It actually works nicely because the spray skirts hold all my other crap down while going down the highway, and don't get damaged by the wind (some of my older spray skirts got ripped to shreds whenever we did the 300 mile trip to Key West on the highway. I see no reason you couldn't climb about the boat over the rear spray skirts, though we never tried it, we do that all the time over the front spray skirts (which are the same basic construction, actually the current front ones used to be the rear spray skirts). I'll probably make another set of rear spray skirts before my daughter comes in January, I'll use the same design, as it works really well, and only takes a couple of hours to make them, plus they are very inexpensive (if I remember, everything was under $40 bucks).
Hope this helps.
Bob
Bob


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 Post subject: Re: SUPER AMAS on TI
PostPosted: Wed Dec 10, 2014 1:38 am 
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Location: Kailua 96734
jddonham wrote:
What's the down side to having the Ama's in the rear position ? Are there any ?
Flexing of the hull, (over rotation from the mainsail) on a reach is the main concern but with that spinnaker doing all the work downwind, my only worry would be just hanging on. :lol:


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 Post subject: Re: SUPER AMAS on TI
PostPosted: Wed Dec 10, 2014 8:22 am 
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Location: Santa Rosa, California
I have had thoughts of Super Ama's as well. I called them, Maga Ama's. My thought was to build them out of two more Ama's. Four total. Leave two uncut and cut the other two at the location where the front Aka connects. Slide the cut Ama over the uncut Ama to the rear Aka location of the uncut Ama. You would end up with a 18' Ama and three locations (holes) for mounting your Aka's. (I have experience plastic welding kayaks, hobies as well) Plastic weld the two together and fill the cut Ama with expanding foam. The uncut Ama would be inside the cut Ama a fare amount which would give it some support and in between the two would be expanding foam which would take up any wiggle room and help with flexing. I feel a little more would have to be done to make the two, one. Although this is the general thought. I hope this makes sense in the way that I wrote it. One of my concerns is weight, although the added weight verses the added support might balance out ? I realize the taper in the Ama's would no longer be consistent. I would do what's needed so they can still collapse and fold in. What do you guys think ? Pro's and Con's ?

JD


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