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PostPosted: Thu Aug 01, 2013 2:45 pm 
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Joined: Mon May 26, 2008 1:55 pm
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Location: Burbank, Ca
I will not beat this subject to death yet again but rather lend helpful advise.

In the State of California a sail boat MUST have CF numbers if it is over 8 feet.

I am an ocean guy. I have taken my AI out as far as 40mi one way but have huge electronics for safety purposes.
USCG, Life Guards, Sheriffs, Etc have NEVER cared. Their concern was safety and wanting to check out the AI as everyone on their boat wanted one!

Flip forward...
I get cited on a county run lake for no CF's. I have my AI and my buddies are using their 70's-80's Hobie Cats. Three trips to court trying to fight a battle that is NOT MINE but the Judge tells me "Get the numbers and I dismiss the ticket." DONE!

Flip forward again...
Out in the ocean and the County comes after us....
"Why do you have CF numbers and they don't?" (One boat had CF's..ME, so I called attention to the others)
"It's a kayak."
"Not once that sail goes up."
My AI / TI friends all got tickets. Two only had to get CF's. The others had to do the same but paid just under $100 in court processing fees and the cost of the CF's.

Please DO NOT buy into what many believe is fact or law if you are in California especially by dealers. The vessel is branded as a kayak but the second that sail goes up it is a sailboat (same for ANY Hobie Kayak with a sail kit) Add the electric drive...you now need to carry fire extinguishers and the works just like a motor boat.

If you live in So Cal and are artistic, do lettering...you can make a ton doing nice CF numbers. I will come to you and be your first! (Stick on's look like garbage!)
Cali is insane...admittedly. If the State can get money they will. It's the county and cities ya need to worry about.

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PostPosted: Thu Aug 01, 2013 5:29 pm 
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Location: Forster, NSW, Australia
Mark, I am sure regulations vary all over the place. Where I sail, the regulations say that off-the-beach kayaks/canoes should carry safety equipment if the is room (other than a PFD), and I have had this officially confirmed. I actually tend to agree with your local authorities, in that AIs and TIs get used in far more ambitious ways (like your own trips), and the comprehensive safety gear you carry is logical and prudent, so mandating same shouldn't be a big deal. Making sure that dealers etc know the facts is of course a different story.

I am expecting that my local authorities will one day "catch up" to the existence of such incredibly versatile vessels as ours, and introduce commonsense safety requirements, which differ slightly from those applied to (say) an outbord-equipped trailer boat, such as:-
No "V-sheet" (a large orange "flag" with a huge V on it for airborne visibility)
No bucket
No fire extinguisher
A PLB instead of an EPIRB.

Equipment I reckon to be fair enough for taking an Island offshore include:-
All-round white light (if sailing after dark)
Flares (2 red, 2 smoke)
First aid kit
Sea anchor & line (ideally ground anchor too)
Compass
Cellphone and/or VHF radio
GPS (no longer unrealistic since smartphones can run charting apps)
Sponge, bailer or bilge-pump

I am sure others can think of additional gear which would be worth including.

Lastly, vinyl lettering and numbers can be designed on computers and cut precisely in almost any layout, and I couldn't imagine there is anyone still actually painting numbers onto vessels these days (google will show an incredible choice).


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PostPosted: Thu Aug 01, 2013 9:55 pm 
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Location: Cape Coral, FL
Wow, the nanny state at it's best. The government should stay out of our business.

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PostPosted: Thu Aug 01, 2013 10:25 pm 
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Location: Forster, NSW, Australia
Kayakman, that horse has really bolted. I am afraid that the days when somebody could simply risk their lives by ignoring safety risk mitigation are gone. Look everywhere around society, and this "nanny state" has unarguably been beneficial:- seatbelts, vehicle emissions, crumple zones, smoking bans, drinking limit age restrictions, school zone speed limits etc etc.

It is fine to pretend that the romance of just taking on nature without a care is still possible, but it is just not realistic these days unfortunately.

Having said that, I believe we all have a responsibility to minimise the need for anyone else to risk their lives to save us from our own risk-taking, so I don't really blame the authorities for setting rules in an attempt to overcome the ignorance of some.


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PostPosted: Mon Aug 05, 2013 12:02 am 
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Joined: Thu Oct 04, 2012 5:41 pm
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Location: Aussie living in San Diego, CA
tonystott wrote:
Equipment I reckon to be fair enough for taking an Island offshore include:-
All-round white light (if sailing after dark)
Flares (2 red, 2 smoke)
First aid kit
Sea anchor & line (ideally ground anchor too)
Compass
Cellphone and/or VHF radio
GPS (no longer unrealistic since smartphones can run charting apps)
Sponge, bailer or bilge-pump

I am sure others can think of additional gear which would be worth including.

Tony that's a good list for anyone heading out beyond the coast. For offshore I think I would suggest that VHF be mandatory - cell-phones have limited communication use once out of range of cell towers. VHF can at least communicate with other vessels within range.

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PostPosted: Mon Aug 05, 2013 3:45 am 
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Location: sarasota,fl
Cell phones and water don't do well together, I've ruined several now out on the water. An IPhone typically costs around $700 bucks and gets spotty more than a mile or two offshore especially in the keys. You can buy a pretty good waterproof radio for $125 bucks, and a decent waterproof GPS for under $100, and you should already have a magnetic compass and whistle in your pfd anyway. If you go offshore a boatUS membership is probably a good idea. Because if you have a problem offshore the coast guard will come save you but will not save your boat.
Bob


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PostPosted: Sun Aug 11, 2013 7:01 pm 
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Location: Cape Coral, FL
tonystott wrote:
Kayakman, that horse has really bolted. I am afraid that the days when somebody could simply risk their lives by ignoring safety risk mitigation are gone. Look everywhere around society, and this "nanny state" has unarguably been beneficial:- seatbelts, vehicle emissions, crumple zones, smoking bans, drinking limit age restrictions, school zone speed limits etc etc.

It is fine to pretend that the romance of just taking on nature without a care is still possible, but it is just not realistic these days unfortunately.

Having said that, I believe we all have a responsibility to minimize the need for anyone else to risk their lives to save us from our own risk-taking, so I don't really blame the authorities for setting rules in an attempt to overcome the ignorance of some.


funny you would say this then go out at night with lights for a kayak or a canoe while on a sailboat. laws for lights are generally international but i'm not sure about your location. they have been in place for a very long time and they indicate several things: boat type, boat size, direction, and speed. ideally, our lights should be mounted on the masthead but this is impractical with our masts.

j

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also a more manageable 100 square foot spinny...
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PostPosted: Sun Aug 11, 2013 7:20 pm 
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Location: Maui, Hawaii
Sailboats less than 7 meters (22.96 feet) may carry an electric torch or lighted lantern showing a white light to be displayed in sufficient time to prevent collision

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PostPosted: Sun Aug 11, 2013 8:26 pm 
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Joined: Mon May 02, 2011 8:48 am
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Location: Southwest Calif.
So, did you end up getting numbers for your kayak ?
I'm kinda curious as I also live in So. Cal.
So far I haven't been hassled. I haven't been out in County lakes but have been out in the ocean , Newport Bch, Huntington Harbor, and Los Alamitos Bay.

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PostPosted: Mon Aug 12, 2013 9:44 pm 
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Location: Cape Coral, FL
KayakingBob wrote:
Sailboats less than 7 meters (22.96 feet) may carry an electric torch or lighted lantern showing a white light to be displayed in sufficient time to prevent collision



If you look at the other post where we were discussing lights, you will see I said you can carry a flashlight or r/g/w. An anchor light (all around white light) is NOT a torch and doesn't look like a torch.

I can't stress enough how important it is to do this stuff right. I've spent hundreds of hours running at night, it is difficult enough without some idiot blundering about without the correct lights. I've seen it far too often and heard of far too many wreaks caused by issues at night.
If you carry a torch and a boat approaches from downwind, they can run you over before you even hear them. If you might be out a few minutes after dark, a flashlight is fine, if your going offshore fishing at night or doing a long distance race, rig proper lights. Naval law is still quite Drawinian, so you can chose to light your boat any way you want, and if you get run over by a yacht, they likely won't even notice, nor will they be at fault
J

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PostPosted: Mon Aug 12, 2013 10:28 pm 
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Location: Maui, Hawaii
Sorry, I was in a hurry, but should have made a much longer post. I do agree with you. I was just trying to say that when it get this complicated, maybe going simpler is better.

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PostPosted: Mon Aug 12, 2013 10:51 pm 
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Location: Forster, NSW, Australia
You seem to be unable to let this go, so I will quote again the regulations under which I operate here in the state of New South Wales Australia.. (As an aside, I repeat that having red and green nav lights on a kayak is a negative in my opinion because (a) they will be too low to be visible in anything but millpond conditions, (b) their presence could give you a false sense of security due to (a) above, and (c) they might give another vessel the false idea that you have the ability to manouver quickly.

Quote from the Boating Handbook 2011-2012 Page 49
Quote:
Sailing vessels of less than 7 metres in length, or vessels being rowed, should if practicable exhibit the lights required for sailing vessels over 7 metres.
If not they should have ready use of an electric torch or lighted lantern showing a white light which shall be exhibited in sufficient time to prevent collision

My italics. It DOES NOT say that the light has to resemble a torch, that is entirely your own creation. So my all round masthead light complies 100% with the regulations both I and Kayakingbob have quoted (it would appear these are consistent because they are in fact international regulations). You also seem to believe that the white light is somehow illegal if it is at a masthead, but again, this is entirely your own creation, as it is not mentioned in the regulations elither.

Should my alround masthead light be insufficient to warn "some idiot blundering about", I will also shine my torch to light up the sail. Oh, and BTW, if you are in danger of being run don from behind, the ONLY light you will be showing, even if fully complying to your interpretation, will be a single white light, just like mine. The regulations offer zero requirements regarding the height of a stern light....


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PostPosted: Mon Aug 12, 2013 11:02 pm 
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And I also believe Tony is correct, as long as his anchor light is only turned on when needed and not on continuous through the night as an anchor light usually would be.

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PostPosted: Tue Aug 13, 2013 1:43 am 
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Location: Forster, NSW, Australia
Bob, there is nothing in the regulations requiring me to sail inlit unless being approached by another vessel. I am quite happy for other vessels to keep clear of me just like they would an anchored vessel.


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