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PostPosted: Thu Aug 22, 2013 7:06 pm 
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Location: Sarasota,Key West FL
My old emergency backup 2hp 4 stoke Island Hopper outboard finally gave up the ghost after 3 good years of service (around 3000 sailing miles on my 3 different TI's, not all powered obviously, just on the boat in case of emergency, in total I ran 12 gallons of fuel through the engine, it finally rusted to pieces, and no longer operates. So I bought a new Honda 2.3 outboard (the motor I should have bought 3 yrs ago). For those who don't know the Honda, it is extremely well built, and though I only have 4 hrs on the motor so far (still on the 10 hr breakin) I am extremely impressed with this motor. It weighs about the same as the old motor (under 30 lbs) but is a completely different animal (way better).

Here is a video of me power sailing with the Honda, keep in mind I'm breaking in the motor and can't go above 1/4 throttle. I was out almost 4 hours putting around powersailing, breaking in the motor and only used 1 quart of fuel, I'm pretty sure my speed never went below 5mph, and at times I was up over 8mph.
I'll be honest if I can go out and have this much fun for 4 hours using a dollars worth of gas, I'm all in, I may just begin powersailing all the time from now on.
[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MUwB17a88lc&feature=youtu.be[/youtube]

Of course my old motor could also do all this, but it used 4 times more fuel, and at wide open I could only get to around 5mph (with no sails flying). Seriously the difference is like night and day. Here is another video showing me going to every sailboat I saw out on the bay and sailing around them (I was bored) they were all in irons most of the day just sittin there.
[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vyMNZK8foBA&feature=youtu.be[/youtube]
I swear I sailed a circle around and said hi to at least 6 to 8 sail boats out in Sarasota bay today all in irons, just out there killin time trying to break in the motor, total for the day if I had to guess I covered between 22 and 25 miles just putting along.
After 4 stupid hours of sailing for no good reason, I finally had enough, and decided to go in expecting the fuel to be gone by now (the tank is 1/3 gallon). I popped the gas cap and looked in the tank and had only used a quart of fuel.
[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P7EjoztMURc&feature=youtu.be[/youtube]

At that point I just packed up and came home. This is one unbelievable motor. Fastest I got all day was around 10mph during a short spell of nice wind, you could here the prop windmilling. I'm guessing my average speed was around 7mph for the day, throttle was never higher than 1/4 throttle.
Now I curious if it's my giant wing sail creating all this efficiency ( creating a giant vacuum worm hole in front of my boat LOL) or if this motor is just that good compared to my old one (never motor sailed with my new wing sail and the old motor, I now regret not doing that as a comparison).
Enjoy
Bob

"EDIT"
You might notice in the video that every time I talked my boat would stop, and I would say I'm doing this speed, but then repeat "or I was" over and over again. The reason is I had a dead mans throttle setup on the motor (like we used to use on racing boats), basically if you let go of the throttle the boat stops. Since this was the maiden voyage for this setup, I wasn't sure of anything, so just for safety reasons I had the dead man throttle setup, along with a kill cord tied to my PFD. Running the rudder and sail control lines with my left hand and the throttle with my right, I was left with no hands to operate the camera. Next time out I will remove the dead man throttle.


Last edited by fusioneng on Fri Aug 23, 2013 9:07 am, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Thu Aug 22, 2013 8:26 pm 
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Presumably you could do the same thing with the hobie electric motor ?


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PostPosted: Thu Aug 22, 2013 8:50 pm 
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Fusioneng can answer for himself, but...of course, an electric motor might put in 4 hrs--maybe--but usually electric motor users do not have enough battery life to put in 15-20 miles at 5 mph.

Personally, I'm not going to carry either an electric or gas motor, but for distance (& perhaps reliability over time in a saltwater environment), I would be going with a gas powered engine.

Keith

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PostPosted: Thu Aug 22, 2013 9:27 pm 
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Location: Sarasota,Key West FL
Ocean moves:
A couple yrs ago I did a deep dive into all the electronics and math ( never got into any testing) on how to enter the 300 mile EC challenge on the class 6 category (experimental electric). At the time I knew nothing about wing sails and came to the conclusion that I couldn't provide 60 hrs of continously power at 125 watts. The best I could do using a solar array during the day and a fuel cell at night ( of my own design) was around 40 hrs. So I never made the system.
Fast forward to now, knowing what I now know about combining all the available power sources ( creating apparent wind from wing sails, mirage drive pedal power, solar/fuel cell power, and the torqueedo propulsion system) I would have to admit that it can now be done. And instead of my original 4 mph average speed, I'm now thinking around 7 mph average speed for the 300 mile trip. That's less than 42 hrs vs my original 75 hrs planned time.
I wish they would allow my present setup ( with the Honda) as I'm pretty certain I could do the race in under 40 hrs using only 3 gallons of gas.
A direct answer to your question is yes, by combining the pedal drive, wing sails, and a solar/torqueedo electric system, I'm pretty sure you would get very similar results to what I am getting with the small gas motor. If you notice in the videos, I'm pedaling 100 percent of the time, it takes all 3 power sources working together to get these efficiencies and speeds. With the main technology being the wing sail amplifying whatever power is there to create apparent wind in front of the boat regardless of actual wind direction ( at least that's my theory anyway)


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PostPosted: Fri Aug 23, 2013 7:06 am 
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Location: Jupiter, Florida
Bob,
Great setup! I also am avid fan of motor sailing but I went with the Hobie evolve. I believe your gas powered motor solution is probably more capable and probably cheaper than my setup. I do, however, like the simplicity and the quietness of the Hobie Evolve 2 motor. To solve the range problem I went with two batteries. The 320 watt battery that came with the evolve and the Torqeeto 1145 battery. The 1145 is a 520 watt battery and cost less than Hobie's 320 watt battery. For a 30% increase in overall cost my usable range increased by more than 162%. My experience is that when the wind and current is against me I can get about 7-9 hours out of the system at 3-4 knots. The variation has a lot to due with the severity of the current and wind. There have been times when I have been 5-7 miles offshore with 20 knot winds out of the south (forecast was 8 knots) and a current pushing me north at over 5 knots. Under these conditions I am quite confident that I would not have been able to recover the boat to the launch location if I had not had the motor. Besides the capabilities it gives me off shore, the fun factor is undeniable. Cruising with my wife with my feet kicked up, sipping a Rum n Coke while watching the sunset, is hard to beat!

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PostPosted: Fri Aug 23, 2013 8:29 am 
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If you ever watch TV there is a commercial going around now about if we lived in an 'this "or" that world' vs an 'if this "and" that world'.
Hobie advertises their islands as a the first tri powered boat, you can use either the pedal power, or sails, or the electric power. But I don't believe they have connected the dots ( replacing the word 'or' with the word 'and'). By utilizing all the available power sources and applying them all at the same time, the TI becomes one of the most unique vessels of any kind anywhere in the world. My video shows me going at very decent speeds ( 5-10 mph) in very low wind conditions and achieving over 100 miles per gallon of gas (according to my calculations). Or with a solar electric setup though I haven't proven it out, I'm thinking there is no reason you couldn't since the electric drive is not the primary power source the power drain would be considerably less. Whenever I'm out on my TI I alway pedal 100% of the time ( that's my excersize program), both my wife and I can pedal for ten hours one day and get up and do it again the next day ( we are long time kayakers), plus lets face it pedaling a mirage drive takes no more energy than walking ( we all probably need the excersize). I haven't tried it yet but I'm assuming having two people peddling the performance would increase dramatically over even what I showed. Adding a simple wing sail is a no brainer, The things are completely automatic, and it pretty much takes care of itself in all wind conditions.
Maybe my conditions down here on the west coast of Florida are unusual, but we only have very light winds (under 5 mph) 10 months out of the year, and I don't know about anyone else but sailing my lock stock TI in those conditions is just not worth going out, that's why I started adding sails in the first place.
My honest opinion is Hobie should be going around demonstrating this unique capability, and try to maybe set some sort of Guinness records, or get some sort of notoriety out of this completely unique ability besides one small press blurb 2-3 yrs ago.
Of course this is all just my opinion, but I don't think Hobie fully realizes how amazing their amazing invention is (adventure series boats) and what they can really do.


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PostPosted: Fri Aug 23, 2013 9:05 am 
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Nice motor, I like it. 8) But, where does it end. :roll: If sailing is not a huge priority and fishing is, then if you are using a motor your 1 step closer to just getting a regular boat, since you have to launch in calm waters and in a landing/beach, where weight is a concern. Already with the AI/trailer I'm questioning this without a motor. :lol:
With a full boat/sailboat, you now have more storage space, standing walking platform and can even add a larger motor for bigger speeds. Ahhhhh, sometimes we just need to step back and keep it simple which was the attraction/simplicity that brought us to love kayaking. 8)

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Last edited by CR Yaker on Fri Aug 23, 2013 9:27 am, edited 2 times in total.

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PostPosted: Fri Aug 23, 2013 9:07 am 
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Fusion
Glad to hear you got the Honda you have mentioned wishing you had purchased in the first place (though that would have been a 2 HP, the increase to 2.3 is pretty new)
I am curious how the noise level compares between your old and new motors. Maybe not a fair comparison, since you will be comparing full throttle vs 1/4 throttle, but maybe fair, since you will be comparing comparable boat speeds.
3 years of service on the Island Hopper seems short. I hope the Honda serves you longer.
Are you still using the same motor mount, and do you think it will do at full throttle?

Also, is yours the long or short shaft version of this motor?


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PostPosted: Fri Aug 23, 2013 10:08 am 
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fusioneng wrote:
...By utilizing all the available power sources and applying them all at the same time, the TI becomes one of the most unique vessels of any kind anywhere in the world. My video shows me going at very decent speeds ( 5-10 mph) in very low wind conditions and achieving over 100 miles per gallon of gas (according to my calculations). Or with a solar electric setup though I haven't proven it out, I'm thinking there is no reason you couldn't since the electric drive is not the primary power source the power drain would be considerably less. Whenever I'm out on my TI I alway pedal 100% of the time ( that's my excersize program), both my wife and I can pedal for ten hours one day and get up and do it again the next day ( we are long time kayakers), plus lets face it pedaling a mirage drive takes no more energy than walking ( we all probably need the excersize). I haven't tried it yet but I'm assuming having two people peddling the performance would increase dramatically over even what I showed. Adding a simple wing sail is a no brainer, The things are completely automatic, and it pretty much takes care of itself in all wind conditions...
.


I agree 100% that using all 3 power sources provide a synergistic affect that defies expectations. The only caveat I would add is that once you get to 4-5 Knots haul speed, via wind/motor/wind +motor, adding foot power adds little to the equation. Exceeding haul speed is going to require more power than your legs can provide.

Also, the limiting factor in the solar panels is that the batteries will not charge faster than 45w/hr. So even in perfect conditions you will have a net drain on the battery of 55watts of more.

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PostPosted: Fri Aug 23, 2013 11:34 am 
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Location: Sarasota,Key West FL
CR Yaker :
The adventure type boats can be used for just about anything anyone can think of. Our TI is mostly used for excursions (island hopping in the keys) scuba diving, lobstering, and spearfishing. We don't fish at all. Down there anywhere close to the land it is mostly barren sand and very shallow, so to do anything interesting you pretty much have to go sometimes quite a distance (sometimes 15 to 20 miles from launch). We used to have a Sea Ray powerboat for powerboating, kayaks for kayaking, and a sunfish for sailing, but at $300-$400 per month for dry storage of the powerboat, $2000-$3000 just in maintainence (because of the salt water), and a large fortune in gasoline (@ $4.00 plus per gallon), on top of all that the boat cost over $60,000. Powerboating in Florida is not cheap. Then when you have both kayaks, and sailboats all tying up valuable garage space, it all becomes a big cluster. Yet we love the water and are out in the gulf every single weekend weather permitting all year round. Yes you can buy a wilderness yak used for $50 dollars down here (there is one in every yard). We started out renting paddle yaks many years ago, but never felt safe venturing more than a few hundred yards from shore (and never into the open ocean), and our safe limit was around 2-3 miles traveling. Once we switched to Hobie kayaks we were able to triple that distance, then adding the sail kits we were able to triple that distance again. The sunfish was only good for just putzing around sailing once in a while, the boat is really not designed to do anything else (when was the last time you saw anyone fishing off of their sunfish or laser). Now with the adventure boats we got rid of all the others, and only own just the TI now. With the TI we were able to triple our feel safe distance yet again, and the boats are pretty darn capable in nearly any sea and wind conditions short of Small craft advisories. It basically replaced the powerboat, kayaks, and the sailboats all with just one boat.
If I lived in Texas I would have no qualms about sailing an AI or a TI 5-10 miles out to oil platforms if I was a fisherman. I have the motor and extra sails on there for both safety and speed, if I'm going 15 miles I would rather do it at 8-10 mph vs 2-3 mph, but that's just my preference. We have been car topping our TI's for over 3 yrs now, and we are out every single weekend all year round, and have launched from pretty much anyplace it is possible to launch from, including sea walls, rocks, and 2-3 foot surf. The boats are very versatile, and if your just going out for a quick sail, or fishing a lake or river you don't need anything at all, just the kayak, leave all the extras at home (that's what we do). We only just recently bought our trailer for our TI, it's just more handy for me keeping all the boat assembled and ready to launch in the garage vs having to dis-assemble everything and stuff it all into and on top of our SUV, my opinion is the trailer is a nice to have, but not a gotta have thing if your reasonably fit. Even now since we have our trailer, when we go down to key west (we have a second house down there), or when we are traveling around the country pulling our camper we never take the TI trailer because parking is impossible to find in Key West and is very expensive, we just throw the boat on the car for sometimes 3-4 weeks at a time, and with the camper in tow, the hitch is occupied.
We consider our TI to be our SUV, you can use it for pretty much anything. On one day we can throw the kayak onto the car then drop it into the Braden or Sante Fe river and kayak all day, and the very next day we can be scuba diving with full gear miles off shore off of Key Largo or Key West, all with the same boat, you have to love the things. Ongoing costs, nearly nothing, storage costs nothing (we just keep it in our garage), Fuel if you really wanted to use the motor, will cost next to nothing (figure $1 to $2 per day), the dang thing gets 100 miles per gallon of gas. The gas motor is just a safety thing with us since we go out in open ocean, do you have to have it "NO". Do you have to have all the extra sails like I have to make the boat usable "NO". Do you have to continually putze with the boat and make all kinds of adjustments to make it work good enough "NO", I just putz with the boat for my own personal enjoyment (part of my hobby).
Bob


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PostPosted: Fri Aug 23, 2013 12:02 pm 
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beebrain :
I ended up buying the short shaft model, it fits my existing motor mount just fine without having to do anything at all. I had already purchased all the metal for the new mount, so I will still likely make a new mount (the old one is really ratty looking after 3 yrs of heavy use). But if I take a year to make it, that will be fine.

The noise from this motor seems to be considerably less, you can compare yourself, here is an old video of me powersailing with my old motor, the motor was running near full throttle to get to 5 mph (with no sails flying). The same Iphone was used on both this video and the ones above.


Of course this video was done before I knew anything about wing sails, so the jib in this video is just a standard jib (no wing). In the above videos the wing jib is 5 inches thick and 33 sq ft and is shaped like an airplane wing. It works like an amplifier basically any wind going over it is amplified (creating a vacuum in front of the sail sucking you along), in addition it directs and accelerates the air going over the main making that work more efficiently as well.


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PostPosted: Fri Aug 23, 2013 1:06 pm 
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Thanks Bob, thoughtful reply, exemplifies the personal needs of each can be vastly different. :)

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PostPosted: Fri Aug 23, 2013 2:29 pm 
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Hey, what the hell. Twin 100hp Evinrudes would really make that baby fly. You could even water-ski :? :? :? .

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PostPosted: Fri Aug 23, 2013 9:15 pm 
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Ahhh... Now he sees the light of the true Adventure.

I had the same revelation when I bolted on that little Suzuki 2.5... 8 mph at less than half throttle. I'm fishing places I hadn't thought about, even with the AI, and I feel like I've just scratched the surface.

SUV Adventure for sure


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PostPosted: Sat Aug 24, 2013 7:42 am 
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Let me first clarify exactly what I'm doing so it's clear to everyone.
I had to buy a new emergency backup motor anyway (to replace my old motor) because I often go offshore and I need a safe reliable motor and at least 50 miles of fuel as a safety backup. So I bought the Honda to serve that purpose. With no intentions of doing anything else with it.

While breaking in the motor I happened on this interesting ability of the wing sail to amplify the output of the Honda and my mirage drive system to an unbelievable scale (100 miles per gallon) and the ability of the wing sail/motor/mirage combination to propel my TI at decent sailing speeds (5-10 mph) quietly and using very little fuel in little to no wind conditions. So I thought I would share my accidental discovery, nothing more to it than that.
Before stumbling on this what I think to be a unique ability a couple days ago I had no idea or plans to do anything like that. I just bought the stupid motor as my emergency backup motor and was just breaking the stupid thing in and bored. You can view me trying to powersail with my old setup with just standard sails and my old motor in my response to Beebrain above, and to be honest that was a painful and noisy experience and hardly worth the effort.

I love to go out sailing every weekend but unfortunately the area I live in doesn't really have any good wind 300 days out of the year.
Here is a snapshot from my phone for todays forecast:
Image

Since pedaling my TI is my exercise program, I always pedal 100% of the time and when we are not traveling to our Key West place or doing any family stuff, or going out scuba diving I typically have 3 routes that I take depending on wind and weather conditions every weekend (sometimes 2-3 times a week) all year round.

Route 1 launch from City Island, then circle Lido key (10 miles total)

Route 2 launch from City Island sail the length of Sarasota bay (20 miles total)

Route 3 launch from City Island sail up and around Egmont key (50 miles total)

The current thru all the passes is typically 5-6 mph so if there is not enough wind I cannot pedal thru the passes when the current is wrong (another reason for the motor).
My only reason for adding additional sails to my TI 3 yrs ago was to try and reduce my travel times around my routes because I found it boring traveling at 2-3 mph in the typical low winds around here with my stock TI.
To pass time (I'm an engineer/inventor) and to help occupy my mind I like to putz and mess around with my boat, designing, building, and try out new things, to help me learn and understanding all this stuff better is all part of my hobby.
Once all my TI mods are completed early next year(adding my main wing sail is all that is left to do) my goal is to make the 50 mile round trip around Egmont key in under 4 hrs without my hydrofoils, and not using more than 1 quart of fuel (about a bucks worth) in the typical 5-8 mph winds around here. Currently the trip takes around 6 hrs with winds around 10mph coming from the east or west and steady (and not using the motor at all), as long as the chop is not too bad.
I was asked by some of the forum members to start sharing and writing about some of the crap that I do (apparently it's interesting to some), so I do, if it becomes boring to everyone and nobody really cares, I will stop

Hope this helps to clarify what I like to do
Bob


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