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PostPosted: Wed Aug 28, 2013 5:21 am 
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Tom Kirkman wrote:
Because of the nature of the Islands - drysuits are not exactly ideal. On the Islands, water comes up from beneath you, so you're going to get wet. Water will get past the dry suit. Count on it.

.


Count on it of its garbage then get rid of it.


Your dry suit is simply poor and even deadly. Either you don't have true dry suit or its ill fitting or its just lousy but no dry suit worth its salt is going to let a single drop in. People dive over 200' deep in them. They can certainly handle a splashing on a sailing kayak - and completely dry. I'm wondering if the gaskets were cut too loose .


Pete


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PostPosted: Wed Aug 28, 2013 5:52 am 
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TIDALWAVE wrote:
Chest waders have evolved from ones that could drown you to ones that actually provide some buoyancy. Several years ago, I raised this controversy in the forum and was quickly attacked for stating that waders could fill with water and pull you down. This was not anecdotal as I had fallen into a deep pool while fly fishing and would not have made it, if not for a friend who pulled me out.
I have subsequently replaced the waders (with a 'modern-insulated' pair) and jumped into the lake...the new waders were cumbersome with water in them...but they did provide some positive buoyancy. So my recommendation is that if you choose to wear waders on your AI/TI...make sure that the waders have some buoyancy.
.

Tidalwave, there are two different issues here. Modern lightweight waders have NO buoyancy. Instead, their thinness results in all air being squeezed out by water-pressure (unlike more rigid traditional rubberised waders), so they hug your legs, thus leaving no room for water to enter. You then still have the buoyancy you have when swimming (plus of course your lifejacket, which I would always recommend wearing anyway).

It is true that >some< water will get inside, but if you have the normally recommended wader belt on, not enough to limit mobility when getting out of the water afterwards.

The separae issue is keeping warm, and if the waders work, you can then wear whatever you think is appropriate under them to handle the warmth issue.

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www.scenefromabove.com.au


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PostPosted: Wed Aug 28, 2013 6:29 am 
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Petewp61 wrote:
Tom Kirkman wrote:
Because of the nature of the Islands - drysuits are not exactly ideal. On the Islands, water comes up from beneath you, so you're going to get wet. Water will get past the dry suit. Count on it.

Count on it if its garbage then get rid of it.

Your dry suit is simply poor and even deadly. Either you don't have true dry suit or its ill fitting or its just lousy but no dry suit worth its salt is going to let a single drop in. People dive over 200' deep in them. They can certainly handle a splashing on a sailing kayak - and completely dry. I'm wondering if the gaskets were cut too loose .

Pete


I agree with Pete. A "Dry Suit" should keep you absolutely dry. Dry suits have no insulation or heat retention qualities. Rather, you must wear suitable clothes under them to keep you warm. A negative of dry suits is that you may be too warm. Consequently, during a typical warm day, you may end up with a half liter or liter of sweat inside the suit. Kayakman7, who is a very experienced small tri sailor, suggests that only Gore-Tex dry suits should be considered. Again, the people on the WaterTribe site have discussed dry suits and other protective gear from time to time. To enter a WaterTribe race, like the Everglades Challenge, suitable foul-weather gear including dry suits are a requirement for exposed craft like Islands. Here is a link to the WaterTribe forum: http://watertribe.org/forums/ Here is a link to a recent "dry suit for sale" thread which includes a bit of discussion of suits in general: http://watertribe.org/forums/topic/dry-suit-for-sale 2 WaterTribe posters on that thread are Island owners (juscuz & kayakman7).

REI has an interesting Kokatat Gore-Tex light-weight dry suit at a very reasonable price. http://www.rei.com/product/816632/kokatat-lightweight-gore-tex-paddling-suit-mens Steve Sanders has one of these--see him on one of our camping trips: http://www.hobiecat.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=70&t=7276&start=270 Lots of good stuff on that page, but scroll down to the thread: A Trip to Pavilion-- WaterTribe EC2013, Haka Table, Choppers, Rough Waters, and a Good Time to see Steve in his dry suit.

Here is a good thread on dry suits in FL. See posts by snjsanders and bosab. http://www.hobiecat.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=71&t=45493

Keith

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I sail: Biscayne Bay, Everglades to Cape Romano, Ft Desoto, Cedar Key

"Any intelligent fool can make things bigger and more complex ... It takes a touch of genius and a lot of courage to move in the opposite direction." A. Einstein


Last edited by Chekika on Wed Aug 28, 2013 7:19 am, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Wed Aug 28, 2013 7:13 am 
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My dry suit is a Stolquist. It is not designed to keep water out if you get submerged. None are. This is why you need to have on undergarments that will keep you warm if you get wet, which you're apt to do.


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PostPosted: Wed Aug 28, 2013 7:46 am 
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Tom Kirkman wrote:
My dry suit is a Stolquist. It is not designed to keep water out if you get submerged. None are. This is why you need to have on undergarments that will keep you warm if you get wet, which you're apt to do.

Tom, I've never seen a Stolquist "dry suit" but based on your comments I will never buy one. To say dry suits are not designed to keep water out, is plumb wrong. If you say some dry suits are cheap and poorly designed, that is probably correct. If you say some dry suits do not fit the user properly and leak, that is probably correct. But, to say "None are" designed to keep water out is just not true.

I suggest readers who want further info about dry suits simply go to Wikipedia http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dry_suit

Keith

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I sail: Biscayne Bay, Everglades to Cape Romano, Ft Desoto, Cedar Key

"Any intelligent fool can make things bigger and more complex ... It takes a touch of genius and a lot of courage to move in the opposite direction." A. Einstein


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PostPosted: Wed Aug 28, 2013 8:27 am 
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I get the idea that what you're talking about is often referred to as a "wet suit" such as what divers wear. I think our terminology is our difference here.

What most kayak shops sell as dry suits will not allow you to be submerged and keep water out. They're intended to protect from splash and spray. All I have to do is stick my foot in the water and water will come in around the junction between the dry suit pants and my shoes. The longer my foot is submerged, the more water will seep in. And this true of every dry suit I've worn, which is about 3 now.

In the interest of having the most protection and sparing oneself a dangerous situation, you should definitely wear clothes that allow you to keep warm when wet. The Titanic couldn't sink and dry suits can't let water in, but they do. So prepare for what can happen rather than what isn't supposed to happen. At least if you're going out in those situations where being wet can be deadly.


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PostPosted: Wed Aug 28, 2013 8:47 am 
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Herbaldew wrote:
we have never had the first drop of water get past our dry suits.

We have another winter on our suits since I originally replied to this thread and I still stand by the above quote ... not one drop of water has penetrated our suits even though we constantly sit in water. These see more than winter wear as well as we are quite comfortable in them until the air temp gets into the mid 70's.

Just for clarification, ours are Kokatat "GORE-TEX® Lightweight Paddling Suit with Relief Zipper and Socks". There isn't a junction between the suit and shoes to let water in. I read somewhere that these are actually only "semi" dry suits because they have a neoprene neck instead of a gasket. I supposed if we ever get enough water around our neck, we will finally get our first drop inside the suit. Due to the comfort of neoprene, this is a trade off we happily live with.


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PostPosted: Wed Aug 28, 2013 9:20 am 
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Tom,

I am not talking about wet suits; that is a clearly defined class of gear. Please direct yourself (and others) to Wikipedia for some simple definitions. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dry_suit

Or go to reliable retailers to see some selection.
REI Wetsuits: http://www.rei.com/search?query=wetsuits
NRS Wetsuits: http://search.nrs.com/search?p=Q&lbc=nrsweb&uid=42548115&ts=custom&w=wetsuits&af=ct1%3a01&isort=score&method=and&view=list&cnt=200
REI Drysuits: http://www.rei.com/search?query=drysuits
NRS Drysuits: http://search.nrs.com/search?p=Q&lbc=nrsweb&uid=42548115&ts=custom&w=drysuits&af=ct1%3a01&isort=score&method=and&view=list&cnt=200

Some foot protection is integral to the dry suit and will not leak unless there is a flaw. Other dry suits have latex ankle gaskets and should not leak if fitted properly. If you are new to dry suits, it is a good idea to go to a knowledgeable shop and try one on. It is probably a good idea to go to a shop, if possible to get a good fit. Still, you like these suits a bit large so you can fit clothes under them.

Keith

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I sail: Biscayne Bay, Everglades to Cape Romano, Ft Desoto, Cedar Key

"Any intelligent fool can make things bigger and more complex ... It takes a touch of genius and a lot of courage to move in the opposite direction." A. Einstein


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PostPosted: Wed Aug 28, 2013 9:35 am 
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The trouble is the manufacturers don't all use the same terminology either. What I have bought are clearly listed as "dry suits" by their makers. But you cannot submerge in them without water getting in.

I think we should state whether such a suit is a one-piece with no junctions for feet, waist, etc., or multi-piece with such junctions. I'd agree the former shouldn't let water in, but the latter always will.


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PostPosted: Wed Aug 28, 2013 6:38 pm 
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Well I tried very hard to stay out of this argument. In the end a lot depends on the person wearing the equipment.
==========

I have both waders, two piece system and a (Sorry Tom) a Stolquist DRY SUIT.

==========
The waders are nice but for any long time on the boat they are impractical if you have to relieve your self.

The two piece I use for summer and warmer weather use. You can't walk a boat out through the surf without getting water in. It is easier to add layers than a dry suit.

My Stolquist DRY SUIT I have had for over three years. It has well over a thousand miles on it. Last two EC's I lived in it for four days straight each time. I practice in January on the Chesapeake. Only issue that I have had is the booties have worn due to rubbing and sand in my boots. I check the joints before any major races. I have applied some sealer where I stretched some of the joints. Sweating can be a problem if you don't vent. You need to wear layers and adjust to weather conditions. I bought my suit off E-Bay at a fraction of the cost of a Kokat suit through a local dealer.

My next suit: ??? I am rough on my equipment. I will pay attention to the booties or get a suit with ankle cuffs. I will survey my fellow Watertribers....

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Paul
DogsLife
2011 Adventure Island


http://dogslifeadventures.blogspot.com/


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PostPosted: Wed Aug 28, 2013 8:41 pm 
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Tom,

That's not a true dry suit then. Mine is a KOKOTAT Dura and nothing creeps in anywhere ever. It was also about a thousand bux tax included. More over there is no ankle gasket as it has built in booties .
The sleeve and neck gaskets are full proof and the zipper to get in it is based on the garments used by the astronauts on the space shuttle . What it sounds like you are describing is a splash suit of sorts that's okay for the occasional rogue wave or spray and/or rain but not at all suitable for full immersion. They have their place in locales where the water isn't too too cold.

A true dry suit is a total failure then if water trickles in. Infact its outright deadly under some circumstances. By the way if never get one without goretex.

Jus sayin


Pete


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PostPosted: Wed Aug 28, 2013 8:45 pm 
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DogsLife wrote:
Well I tried very hard to stay out of this argument. In the end a lot depends on the person wearing the equipment.
==========

I have both waders, two piece system and a (Sorry Tom) a Stolquist DRY SUIT.

==========
The waders are nice but for any long time on the boat they are impractical if you have to relieve your self.

The two piece I use for summer and warmer weather use. You can't walk a boat out through the surf without getting water in. It is easier to add layers than a dry suit.

My Stolquist DRY SUIT I have had for over three years. It has well over a thousand miles on it. Last two EC's I lived in it for four days straight each time. I practice in January on the Chesapeake. Only issue that I have had is the booties have worn due to rubbing and sand in my boots. I check the joints before any major races. I have applied some sealer where I stretched some of the joints. Sweating can be a problem if you don't vent. You need to wear layers and adjust to weather conditions. I bought my suit off E-Bay at a fraction of the cost of a Kokat suit through a local dealer.

My next suit: ??? I am rough on my equipment. I will pay attention to the booties or get a suit with ankle cuffs. I will survey my fellow Watertribers....



The booties Im really careful with as I don't want them
Worn through and so make sure I have no chafe points and such. Its easier for me to do as I'm at my leisure when using it as opposed to a marathon event. My approach to using it is for dryness and warmth and I'm extra careful about everything it touches. I know with the tribe that's not always realistic but in my excursions Im not as pushed.

Pete


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PostPosted: Thu Aug 29, 2013 7:40 pm 
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My drysuit is the same kokatat as others here, but not gor-tex fabric...
Yes you can get hot if you are dressed for immersion- witness last week - warm 57 degree water, but 75 degree air temps. So, fleece suit underneath....now pedal for 7 hours trolling for salmon ( did get my list 20 and 10 #ers).
Best way to cool off is to jump in, get that suit dunked...I stay dry of course, but that 57 degree water sir feels good

Still I'd rather have to dunk occasionally, than be underdressed if things go south, and I'm floating.


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PostPosted: Thu Aug 29, 2013 9:19 pm 
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One thing this thread has done for me is to clarify the drysuit I will be buying this fall. I would use this drysuit in S FL where air temps (deg F) can get down into the 50s with highs in the mid-60s and low 70s. It can also reach the high 70s even on cool days. I'm also thinking that Nancy & I might do some TI sailing out here in the Rockies (Yellowstone Lake, Jackson Lake, and maybe even Flathead and Dead Horse Lakes up in Montana.) Of course, sailing on Lake Powell in cooler weather would be great.

With these environments in mind, the suit I buy would have the following characteristics:
    • Kokatat Gore-Tex drysuit w/ lifetime guarantee (I believe Kokatat is the only manufacturer of Gore-Tex suits.)
    • Front entry zipper
    • Front relief zipper (a no-brainer at my age!)
    • Integrated Gore-Tex booties (Latex booties are delicate. No booties means latex ankle seals which make the suit harder to exit. It also means you have to have a separate system to keep your feet warm. You do have to take good care of the integrated booties. Kokatat has a good repair service for user-inflicted damage.)
    • Undecided on the neck seal. Latex is the best seal but must have a comfortable fit. Neoprene is the more comfortable (but leaks slightly).
    • Price: ca $1050-$1100; take advantage of 20% discount coupons at REI.

Keith

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I sail: Biscayne Bay, Everglades to Cape Romano, Ft Desoto, Cedar Key

"Any intelligent fool can make things bigger and more complex ... It takes a touch of genius and a lot of courage to move in the opposite direction." A. Einstein


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PostPosted: Thu Aug 29, 2013 9:58 pm 
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Chekika wrote:
• Integrated Gore-Tex booties (Latex booties are delicate.

Keith, just a thought on that. My first paddling suit was a semi-dry by Kokatat, in their lightweight Tropos fabric. Once, a cheap pair of water shoes I was wearing fell apart, leaving me to walk up a gritty beach without them. This caused several pin-hole size leaks in the suit feet, fixable but annoying.

Later, I upgraded to a full Goretex suit with Goretex booties. I've looked after those from the start:
I wear ordinary socks under the drysuit (protect booties from toenails).
I put the suit on sitting down, and never set the suit foot on the ground.
As soon as my foot is in the bootie, I pull another (ordinary) sock over it. This is padding inside the shoe in case of sand etc getting in.
Then put on a good-quality water shoe which is big enough to fit over all the layers.

Okay, it takes me an extra minute or two getting dressed. But it's comfortable, and several years down the road my suit is still fully waterproof.

Mary


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