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PostPosted: Thu Jul 04, 2013 6:15 pm 
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Location: sarasota,fl
Here is a pic of the Ultimate Tandem Island with it's new tow vehicle. "Ridin in style"

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My wife works full time and doesn't like to take the roadster, she likes the Yukon Denali a lot more. This leaves me in a big pinch during the day, when she has the Denali, I can't go out sailing. Solution, I put a hitch on our roadster and take my TI out anyway, 'in style'. The car is only 3-4 inches off the ground so I have to be a little careful at the launch, almost bottomed it out today when I backed up to the water, but it gets the job done.
Coming home was a dream, I just pulled the roadster into the garage, unhook the TI, and pulled it into the garage along side the car, I swear it took less than a minute, and I was done and in the house.
Bob


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PostPosted: Mon Jul 08, 2013 4:42 am 
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Any views on this system for a jib. bearing in mind the need to stay the mast will be part of it anyway.

And does anyone have a suggestion for a jib for a Ti that comes form another production boat that I can search for second hand?

http://www.aeroluffspars.co.uk/default.html
CC

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Last edited by Chopcat on Mon Jul 08, 2013 5:33 am, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Mon Jul 08, 2013 5:32 am 
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Chopcat:
I'm sure this system would work very well, in design it looks very close to what I built using just PVC pipe. My jib sail weighs under 4 lbs but the 1 inch dia aluminum mast adds quite a bit of weight, something carbon or fiberglass would be very nice and lightweight. The wing spinnaker mast is just 1 inch OD PVC pipe (very flexible), I just needed something to furl the sail around (PVC pipe is very cheap here, and is very good in salt water, and the sun)
Here is some pics of my furler system.

These are the parts, a stainless eyelet, a couple nuts, and what they call a body washer. The washer is trapped under the pvc cap and allows the eyelet to spin. I can probably lift a 1000 lbs (vertically) with this setup (very strong), very simple and inexpensive (about $ 5 bucks). I have one mounted at the bottom and top of each sail.

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Here is a pic of the units mounted on top of the jib (foreground), and the spinnaker (way in the back). You can also see a good view of the mast topper for the mainsail. It's just a 12 inch piece of brass drain pipe (for a utility sink) with a bolt thru it, that just slips over the mast (no mods needed to the mast or sail), the unit in the pic is over 3 yrs old with 2500 or so hard sailing miles on it.
Image

Here is a pic of my furler drum, I just used a Glad food container, and re-enforced it a little with some hot glue, drilled a hole in the side. The thing spins on the 1 1/2 PVC tubing and the rope coils up inside. The Glad containers are clear so I can see the rope inside, and they actually are pretty good at keeping the furling ropes (jib and spinnaker both have the same setup) from getting all fowled.
Image

It's not the perfect system but then again it didn't cost much either.
I know a lot of people are more into professional looking stuff, I don't really care about looks, I just want reliable stuff that works.
Both the spinnaker and jib stay permanently attached to the boat along with all the control line, when I come in I just drop the halyard lines and the furled sails are strapped down to the hull by the trailer straps. When I launch, I step the mainmast and raise up the jib and spinnaker with either of two halyard lines I have rigged to the boat. It's all actually very quick and easy.

With the new wing jib I'm kind of finding out that I really don't use or need that giant spinnaker anymore, so lately I have just been keeping it furled and laying down (it's pretty easy to raise and drop on the water). I may end up just getting rid of the spinnaker since the big wing jib works better than expected on downwind. And the spinnaker can't be used at all upwind.
Bob


Last edited by fusioneng on Mon Jul 08, 2013 6:02 am, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Mon Jul 08, 2013 5:46 am 
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Bob
thanks for that. I feel a winter project coming on.

I have loads of yakattack rails here, as I have taken on a dealership for them, so am thinking about using those to make up a strengthened bow section. I am going to look for a suitable sail and then follow your lead. It could be the first Ti jib in the UK.

Any guidance as to a sail to go for for?

CC

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PostPosted: Mon Jul 08, 2013 7:31 am 
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Chopcat :
Actually most any furler type jib for a H16, or a Getaway would probably work very nicely. You can probably find an old worn out used one for $50-60 dollars, and make it work. I used a Hobie Kayak sail for quite a while but it was a little small for the TI. A sail like this would probably work very well ( http://www.sailrite.com/Hobie-16-Jibsail-Kit-white). The trick on using one of these will be to have the control lines mounted pulling downward (not so much back). It might be nice to add a bow sprit to get the sail further forward as the main on the TI is mounted very far forward, and it's pretty difficult to get enough airflow for the jib, plus the bow kind of needs to be re-enforced a little just to be on the safe side. Captnchaos and I both have similar setups, which are just square aluminum tubing setup as a V brace to hold the bow straight and take some of the load from the jib. With a jib this big you will find the rudder to be a little too small and you will experience weather helm in higher winds, so it will need to remain furled a little. And also in 12-15 mph winds there is too much side load on a reach and the boat can easily tip over unless you are really paying attention. It's probably a pretty good idea to stay the back of the mast top to the back of the boat (rear stay), just to take some of the extra load.

The space you have to work with is around 17 ft (from front eyelet to top of mast) by 5 ft (from front eyelet to main mast), the H16 jib is around 48 sq ft, so it might be a little large, maybe start with an H14 jib or something a little smaller. Here is a link to some talking about the prototype jib that Hobie used in the EC 2011, ( viewtopic.php?f=71&t=34266) I talked to Jim quite a bit that day and I think he said the jib was around 30 sq ft (about the max size I would want to put on based on my own experience).

My main reasoning for adding additional sail area was for better performance in the typical low wind conditions around here, for that purpose they work great. In higher winds, it's probably safer to just leave them furled.

You will find with a jib you can point much closer to the wind on upwind, and the jib will increase your top speed a couple mph, but don't be mistaken to thinking adding just a jib sail will give you a boat with equal performance to an H16, it doesn't, there are many other things going on (mostly the hull, and the boomless mainsail) that prevent the boat from being equal to a Windrider 17 or a Weta, but neither are as versatile as a TI. Go back thru this thread and see some of the things I did to help re-enforce the boat in preparation for adding more sails. The jib gives you a little more performance and versatility, and if you can keep it simple and easy to use and rig it's a worthwhile addition to a TI.
Good luck
Bob


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PostPosted: Sun Sep 01, 2013 3:47 pm 
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Since I first got my first TI over 3 yrs ago I have never been able to go through any of the passes in Sarasota against the current which is 5-6mph. I had tried many times, and even both my wife and I pedaling and our old Island hopper outboard on full throttle I could not get through the passes (especially new pass which is much narrower and swifter).
I went out today with my new Honda outboard, and was able to get through the pass against the tide with a light wind at my back (around 5mph).
Here is a pic of the motor:
Image

I've also posted a little about powersailing and the Honda on another thread powersailing the TI ( viewtopic.php?f=71&t=49014)

Here is a pic of my track for the day from Isailer:
Image

Here is the actual GPS track record from my GPS:
Image

Normally I only run the motor at 1/4 throttle and seem to get between 85 and 100 miles per gallon (still trying to nail that down closer). At quarter throttle it propels the TI at 3mph with no sails at all. Of course as usual I pedal lightly 100% of the time. As soon as I introduce either the wing jib or the mainsail my speed increases to 5mph. When applying all forces pedal, motor on 1/4 throttle, and both wing jib and mainsail working together the performance of the boat takes off like a rocket. As you can see from the GPS track the average speed was 5.7 mph with a max speed of 8.3 mph. Actually the average is a little low ( I think it should have been around 6.5mph) actually before trying to come into the pass on the north end of my track the moving average was 7mph. As soon as I hit the on rushing water the boat stopped and started going backwards, I had to increase the throttle to around 3/4 throttle to get in through the pass. since I had a very light tailwind (<5mph) the sails were limp ( I didn't try to open up my big spinnaker, going under the bridge would have been dangerous with the spinnaker up).
After going around Lido Key I decided to sail around Sarasota bay for a while, there was a regatta going on at Sarasota Sailing squadron and there were at least 300 or 400 sailboats out in Sarasota bay, of all different types (mostly small lasers, and sunfish's). I sailed around some of those regattas (trying to stay out of their way) and just watching (it looked they were all having fun).
I also came across another Hobie kayak out there, and Oasis with a standard kayak sail and an evolve system. So I sailed over to them just to say hi, saying that us Hobiecats were pretty outnumbered on this day. Well I ended up catching their fishing line and we ended up circling each other in the busy channel for about ten minutes trying to find where we were attached. It turned out he had hooked my AMA bungy, and it took a while to find, then a long while to get out of the bungy. It probably looked like a comedy of errors, us just circling each other.
In conclusion I am extremely happy with my TI now, it literally screams, my accidental discovery that by applying the tri power capability of the TI (motor, pedal, wing sail) gives the TI a huge edge over anything else out on the water.
I could just as easily be using an Evolve system (with solar, (wish I could afford one)) vs the Gas motor. However the main purpose of the motor is as an emergency backup for when we go far out scuba diving on the coral reefs down in the keys (typically 5-10 miles offshore). And the gas motor gives me the 100 mile range of reliable backup power I feel I need.
I think I had about 15 to 17 miles on the motor yesterday when I ran out of gas (1/3 of a gallon) so it appears using high throttle to get thru the pass consumed way more gas than normal (near double over previous tests), which I will have to take into consideration in the future.
Bob


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PostPosted: Sun Sep 01, 2013 8:39 pm 
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QUOTE
"...so it appears using high throttle to get thru the pass consumed way more gas than normal (near double over previous tests)"
UNQUOTE

The throttle of engines (be it gas or battery run) seems to have a major impact on the range and fuel consumption. Same goes for the evolve on my TI. Low throttle runs for ca 6-8 hours, half throttle 3-4 hours and full throttle only ca. 45 mintues....

I guess this is no news for experienced motorboaters but an interesting learning experience for us kayaksailors who just use the motor as an "add on' to the sail and mirage drive...

peace
Serbi


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PostPosted: Mon Sep 02, 2013 5:34 am 
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Bob
you beat me to it, but I am glad that it seems to work so well.

I have just about finished the adjustable mount (in between building another interesting boat in two halves) so will be hopefully out this weekend trying it out.

Image
Image

For those with a different opinion - we sail from the bottom of the UK largest harbor and when i have been stuck in the past getting back when the wind and current can be totally against us the Evolve has just made it back. Hence the exploration of an additional source of power to either allow us to get out or back into the harbor as we wish.

Think of it a another bit of safety equipment that also allows you to explore further

CC

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PostPosted: Mon Sep 02, 2013 6:35 am 
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One thing that I have noticed since moving to Tampa Bay Area is that the area is huge. As an example if we want to launch at our favorite launch and want to go up to Egmont key ( our favorite place to dive around here) it's 25 miles one way to get there. Now in the typical light winds we have around here, my basic TI goes around 4mph to 5 mph. Part of my reasoning for adding all the sails was to be able to get to where I want to go in a reasonable amount of time. Another big deal to me is when it's in the 90's with no wind to cool you down you are literally in an oven out on the water, and it is too uncomfortable to be out there.
We used to own a powerboat, along with several kayaks, and at one time had a sunfish as well. Since getting the TI we have sold all of our other boats and just own the TI now and use it for anything water related ( our SUV).
We are extremely happy with what we now have, it is the perfect boat for our lifestyle.
Now that I have a reliable and powerful enough motor to get me out of any bad situation I feel much safer out there.
Add on the accidental discovery of using the tri power capability of the TI to get me where I want to go much faster regardless of wind direction yet using very little fuel (about a dollars worth), it is definitely worth it to me. I don't really care what others think, my boat is setup to satisfy my own needs only, if I feel using the auxiliary motor to get me where I'm going faster at little to no cost, I'm probably going to use it.
A few weekends ago instead of taking the TI out we set out to go to Egmont key to meet other power boating friends (launching from Sarasota 10th st launch). We were on our friends 25 or 26 ft deck boat with a stern I/O drive. We got about 3/4 of the way up there and he ran out of gas (apparently forgot to fill his 80 gallon gas tank). We were a mile or two offshore, and a friendly police patrol boat towed us into shore ( he didn't have to do that). We just happened to run out of gas in front of the only gas station on Anna Maria Island( I think near Holmes beach) so we anchored and walked to the gas station and bought all their 1 gallon gas cans, then went back and forth a few times to add enough fuel to drive to the closest marina. When we got to the marina the gas was $4.50 per gallon and he put in 40 gallons (that's $180 dollars in gas).
I'm not making this stuff up. I'm pretty sure I can make it back and forth to Egmont key and back home (50 miles total) for under a dollar in gas using powersailing. Even in light winds I'm pretty sure I can make the round trip in under 6 hours (2 1/2 to 3 hrs each way). My goal is to make it there and back in under 4 hours but I could only do that with good winds (12mph plus from the west or east) and using my big spinnaker. Now that I have the Isailer app, I will document my trip next time the winds are right for the trip.
Bob
Bob


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PostPosted: Mon Sep 02, 2013 7:33 am 
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Chopcat :
I have built several wooden boats myself, it's a very enjoyable hobby. I'm glad to see you are building it in two halves, I built one in my basement workshop once and was not able to get it out of the basement. I ended up cutting it in half and re-building as a two part boat after the fact (much more work).
When you get your motor mount completed let me know how your Honda 2.3 performs when using the sail (powersailing), it will be an interesting comparison between our boats (same engine). I will likely be making a mount similar to yours, it looks like a very good design.
Bob


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PostPosted: Thu Sep 05, 2013 9:50 am 
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Chopcat wrote:
Any views on this system for a jib. bearing in mind the need to stay the mast will be part of it anyway.

And does anyone have a suggestion for a jib for a Ti that comes form another production boat that I can search for second hand?

http://www.aeroluffspars.co.uk/default.html
CC


Hi Chopcat

Just seen your post and we are always interested for our product to be used on different classes of boat. We would be prepared to give you an Aero Spar system to try out, in return for photos of it fitted on your Hobie. Please get in touch if interested.

Ralph Roberts
ralph@aeroluffspars.co.uk


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PostPosted: Thu Sep 05, 2013 11:02 am 
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Ralph:
As you are probably aware the Hobie tandem island sailboat is probably the best selling boat on the market today. It is apparent that Hobie as a company does not want to step on their regular sailing market ( Hobie cats) with these boats so they do not offer any type of additional sail kits for these boats, though the boat itself desperately needs more sail options ( ie.. Jib, spinnaker, code zero, etc), though promised initially (why I bought one), Hobie has no plans to offer any of these options I assume in fear of stepping on their existing cat market. If some aftermarket manufacturer were to offer such options, I would think there would be a huge market. We know there is huge interest out there given that 24,000 viewers have viewed my modifications that I did in summer 2010 and continue to use pretty much unchanged.
I'm just throwing it out there with the hope some manufacturer will start offering such stuff. Nothing to invent or develop, just follow my designs ( all on this thread), I have we'll over 3000 miles on my TI's now in pretty much all conditions, the designs are proven. Hobie will never offer any of these options for obvious reasons, hopefully this will leave the door open for someone else to step in and offer aftermarket products, similar to items sold for pretty much every other make of sailboat, except of course the quantities will be much higher.
I'm just throwing it out there.
Bob


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PostPosted: Thu Sep 05, 2013 12:25 pm 
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This is an interesting assumption but one I'm not sure is entirely behind Hobie's idea of not adding more sail to the AI/TI. For starters, the ability to furl the mainsail would be lost with most standard jib type set ups, and this ability is one of the very most unique and useful features of the Island Series boats.

Now even if they did (It can be done, I have a system in place now that allows furling of both sails, independently and makes not use of mast stays), I doubt it's going to step on their cat sales. I sail weekly and have made friends with members of a local sailing club, many of who have cats. None of them considers the Islands (with 1 or 2 sails) a sailboat. They look at it like it's a toy. When I drive up with the Weta, they treat it like a "real" sailboat.

Now aside from the fact that my Islands are far more capable in nearly all respects than my Weta, my point is that the people who are in the market for a cat of almost any sort, are not really looking at the Islands. They don't consider them "real" sailboats" and adding another sail doesn't seem to change that. The Islands are pedal kayaks, no matter how much sail you put on them. At least that seems to be the public perception from my own experience.


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PostPosted: Thu Sep 05, 2013 3:44 pm 
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Tom:
As usual you are probably correct, I also don't see anyone who regularly sails an H16 or a wildcat type boat wanting to displace that boat with a TI, however I see that group as being very very small. There are many other small dingy sailboats out there like Lasers, Sunfish, and most small trailerable day sailers that if the TI had slightly better sailing characteristics the TI could displace many of those. I had a sunfish and the only thing I would ever think of using that boat for would be just going out and sailing around a lake for a few hours. If I wanted to go out kayaking I would take the kayaks out, and if we wanted to go powerboating we would take the powerboat out, leaving the sunfish at home. I have still to see anyone ever fishing from one of this type boat (ie... sunfish or laser and I'm out there every weekend). You also never see that type boat parked at a sand bar just relaxing in the afternoon (there are quite a few cats out there typically though, I always see at least one or two amongst the powerboats).
Another popular boat is the Windrider 17, which is also a family type sailor tri, they have a mainsail, jib, and I believe an optional screacher. However they are very large and heavy, and without the mirage drive system, I would have no desire to own one, but that's just me. I am a huge WETA fan also, but could buy 3 TI's for what a WETA costs, and simply cannot afford one, plus I don't think I want to give up my mirage drive, and the ability to use my boat as a kayak without the sails (which is huge for me). Tri's are becoming very popular, and if you look at most like the Warren, Triak, Windriders, etc, all have much better sail options ( ie.. jibs, screachers, etc).
I'm just guessing here but I'm thinking there are between 50 and 60 TI's in the immediate Sarasota area, our local Hobie Island club typically brings around 20+ islands to the gatherings that I have seen so far. I try to talk to every Islander that I see, and most have the same story as me, some are avid kayakers, many are former powerboaters who just got tired of the extreme high costs of owning any type of powerboat down here, also many former and current larger sailboat owners. Many are couples, and many families are out there (younger couples with kids) on the weekends. The common theme I think is everyone loves to be out on the water, especially in paradise (what most locals call south florida), but can no longer afford to take their boats out. At the local marinas there are hundreds if not thousands of sailboats, most sit empty and unused 98% of the time.
I think one critical point about the TI design is with the single sail in 12mph plus winds, the Island is quite capable without the need to add additional sail area. However where we live we simply do not get winds like that ever. Our winds are typically 5-8 mph and quite often less, and the TI in low wind conditions is very very slow, I mean we are talking 3-4 mph in light winds ( I can walk faster to be honest) or just pedal 100% of the time but if that's the situation why buy a sailboat at all. I can't be the only one out there wishing for more sail capability especially in light winds, or maybe I'm all wet and I'm the only one out there that wants more.
Bob


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PostPosted: Thu Sep 05, 2013 6:43 pm 
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I'd also like more performance in very light winds (and may have your answer and will post something this weekend when I get the photos taken). But from Hobie's perspective there is always the trouble of adding enough sail to increase light wind performance, which many of the recreational users of the AI/TI could really get themselves in trouble with in heavier winds.

But, from what I know as of late, there are some things being worked on by Hobie that could soon heat up the Islands a bit. We'll see.


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