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PostPosted: Thu Oct 03, 2013 11:50 pm 
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I think it is still important to maintain one design rules. However I think how strictly they are enforced should depend on the event. For state, national and world championship events they should be enforced strictly.

For club racing though I don't think they matter that much (within reason)

I know at my club they do not come and check boats to make sure they meet rules etc.

I think the comptip is a bit of a special case as from what I have read it was introduced for safety reasons not performance. Its unusual for older boats of any class to fall outside of 1 design rules as generally newer boats have better stuff on them, not worse. I would guess a 1971 Hobie 16 would still be class legal with the exception of the mast?

Also I would argue that one design rules also keep the cost down on boats and allows reasonably old boats to still compete with new ones.


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PostPosted: Fri Oct 04, 2013 5:00 am 
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waheed wrote:
I think it is still important to maintain one design rules. However I think how strictly they are enforced should depend on the event. For state, national and world championship events they should be enforced strictly.

For club racing though I don't think they matter that much (within reason)

I know at my club they do not come and check boats to make sure they meet rules etc.

I think the comptip is a bit of a special case as from what I have read it was introduced for safety reasons not performance. Its unusual for older boats of any class to fall outside of 1 design rules as generally newer boats have better stuff on them, not worse. I would guess a 1971 Hobie 16 would still be class legal with the exception of the mast?

Also I would argue that one design rules also keep the cost down on boats and allows reasonably old boats to still compete with new ones.


Rules that must be applied arbitrarily are not good rules - it leads to arguments at every class regatta. We all want to play by the rules, but nobody wants to send the guy with the solid mast home so we bend them in some situations and enforce them in others. The new guy gets to watch the ugly argument where the Fleet leader sticks up for his newbie while the serious sailors that are going to win regardless want to let them race but disqualify them from the scoring. What good is that?

And on the matter of cost - yes, this is not a formula boat arms race. That part is good. But to mandate hobie-only replacement parts only leads to higher cost. For folks new to the sport who are fixing up an older boat, using Hobie parts can make a fun and worthwhile project boat cost prohibitive. In practice those rules are widely unenforced except for a handful of events where they are unlikely to be a factor. Again, if the rules are only being arbitrarily applied then who are we kidding?

These rules put up illogical barriers that leave new people with a bad first experience or scare others away from showing in the first place. I'm trying to start a new Hobie fleet and this has been a recurring issue for us. Sadly, we may have more success if we drop the Hobie-affiliated points system from our regattas and run them by the handicap rules we use for the rest of the open cat fleet. That certainly does nothing for the national promotion & strength of the class.

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PostPosted: Fri Oct 04, 2013 7:25 am 
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Surely some clubs have open classes for multihulls that are not HCA, in which people can race what they "brung".

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PostPosted: Fri Oct 04, 2013 7:37 am 
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While this is an admittedly small sample size, it's interesting how large the response to my post has been. And one has to wonder about the ratio here. We have Chas5131 dropping out and one has to wonder how many other Chas5131s there are.

Garrett, I've noticed some of your posts fighting for inclusion rather then exclusion, which I admire of you. Nothing in this world remains static, it either grows or dies. Catamaran racing in my neck of the woods seems to be near death. There are tons of old Hobies and Sunfishes and Lasers floating around out there, most of which probably no longer quite meet the requirements of their one design class. Not able to race technically, but able to float and serve as a great intro into racing.

Yet Chas5131 bailed rather then deal with the problems. And I don't blame him. I don't want to show up with my '82 Hobie with a metal mast, illegal tramp, some other mods that may be questionable. I don't want to cause the fleet leader to have to fight to keep me there, while somebody is pointing to the rules and saying my boat is illegal. Like girls, I just want to have fun.

I support the idea of one design classes. I think one design classes is a lot better then the arms and money races in formula classes. We can incorporate these older boats into being legal under the one design rules for club races with a simple rule change. We can work for inclusion of older boats without destroying the concept of one design classes.

Larry Ellison argues that making sailing a spectator sport will increase participation. He might be right, but also having participation easily accessible is important. I'm not sure how much we can grow sailing, but we can do some simple things to avoid killing it off.

Once this thread seems to have run its course, I think I'll copy it, and send it as a letter to Hobie and HCANA. Maybe they'll prove us wrong by doing something about it. After all, it's a simple rule change.

Best of luck,

Jim Clark-Dawe


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PostPosted: Fri Oct 04, 2013 8:40 am 
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CompTip is here to stay. That is a liability issue that no one wants to take on now and a gift from Coleman and the US legal system...

Trampolines and sails are about the only other thing that are defined by rules. There is no doubt in my mind that these are important one-design considerations... and a way to help the Hobie class survive. Classes with open rules are a PITA. Talk about arguments and hassle. Measuring... certification... and besides, without a manufacturer and dealers... you don't have boats. Proof of concept? Regardless of the fact that cat sailing isn't what it once was... Hobie Cat is still here. The class is still active World wide.

That said... I would not discourage someone with non-class parts from participating. Everyone needs to start somewhere. If they like it and start doing well, they would naturally want better equipment at some point. They would just have to understand that placing well would likely put some focus on what they are actually sailing.

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PostPosted: Fri Oct 04, 2013 10:00 am 
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I agree with Matt and I think you guys are really making a mountain out of a mole hill here. In my years of racing at Hobie regattas, I don't recall ever seeing a newbie told to leave or be protested because his boat wasn't 100% compliant with the one-design rules. We still see boats show up with solid masts from time to time and, for the most part, people just ignore it and let the guy sail. Everyone realizes that turning new people away is not the way to grow the sport.

Yes, one of the old crusty salts may grumble that if you win the regatta with a solid mast, you're going to get protested. The fact is, everyone knows you're not going to win and are just there to check out the sport and have a good time. 99% of the people will just be happy to see a new face and the only thing they're going to say is "welcome". Either way, I guarantee the HCA is not going to relax its rules - the Hobie Class Association has built itself on the foundation of being a "Strict One-Design Class".

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PostPosted: Fri Oct 04, 2013 7:36 pm 
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mmiller wrote:
That said... I would not discourage someone with non-class parts from participating. Everyone needs to start somewhere.


I guess, me showing up with my H17 with Pentex square-head would be pushing it... :wink:

This is a rhetorical question anyway, as I am way to far from any places to race even to consider :(

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PostPosted: Sat Oct 05, 2013 7:04 pm 
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mmiller wrote:
CompTip is here to stay. That is a liability issue that no one wants to take on now and a gift from Coleman and the US legal system...

Trampolines and sails are about the only other thing that are defined by rules. There is no doubt in my mind that these are important one-design considerations... and a way to help the Hobie class survive. Classes with open rules are a PITA. Talk about arguments and hassle. Measuring... certification... and besides, without a manufacturer and dealers... you don't have boats. Proof of concept? Regardless of the fact that cat sailing isn't what it once was... Hobie Cat is still here. The class is still active World wide.

That said... I would not discourage someone with non-class parts from participating. Everyone needs to start somewhere. If they like it and start doing well, they would naturally want better equipment at some point. They would just have to understand that placing well would likely put some focus on what they are actually sailing.



I agree with this and support the One Design focus completely...

I just ain't ever going to protest anyone with a non hobie tramp... Nor at the local level intend to dedicate any time to nit picking these types rules to new folks.. ain't going to happen... I will only ever raise a stink if the spirit of the law is being broken...


and so long as we call the Comp tip 'required', and not 'better' equipment.. I am cool with it... :lol: As a guy who is most likely always going to be sailing a bit heavy... I hate that stupid thing spilling power and messing with sail shape.. :twisted: Stupid comptips...




One thing I do find interesting though.. My dad wrecked his comptip mast... It hooked a branch in the driveway while on the trailer and folded it.. So in the quest to find him a new mast I have found several solid sticks.. His old comptip is still good... yet he is still keeping his eyes open for a ready to go comptip... This is a guy who doesn't have any desire to race.. yet insists he need the comptip... I'll never figure that out...


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PostPosted: Sat Oct 05, 2013 9:29 pm 
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CompTip.Thanks to blood sucking lawyers/coleman/idiots!.


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PostPosted: Sun Oct 06, 2013 7:34 am 
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aussiebob wrote:
CompTip.Thanks to blood sucking lawyers/coleman/idiots!.


Why do people leave out the insurance companies, juries, and subrogation? Along with idiots they are the true cause.

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PostPosted: Sun Oct 06, 2013 8:54 am 
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I did not have my '85 H-16 mast retrofitted to comptip though it was offered by Hobie at the time. My understanding is that the comptip was to protect people while trailering in a launch area where there might be low electric wires. There had been some incidents. I appreciate that Hobie wanted to protect us. Though liability could be an issue, there are other trailerable boats with tall masts that have not been modified. I guess there are so many more Hobies that the odds were greater for one to be involved. When I received the notice of the retrofit, it was mentioned that the reduction in height of the aluminum portion of mast reduced the cone of protection from lightning. Interesting trade off.

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PostPosted: Sun Oct 06, 2013 11:20 am 
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Really? sticking to the class rules drives people away? i would suggest the opposite. I sat dormant for year from Hobie 16 racing because of the lack of one design racing in Div 9. I can give two rip about regatta points, but the fact that a regatta is a HCANA points event ensures quality one design sailing. I will not waste anymore of my time on a horribly run open class handicap regattas.

Telling someone they cant be scored because they are 1up, have aftermarket sails, lack a comptip is not excluding them. In most cause they are still welcomed on the race coarse. Newbies are still granted a cheap racing experience without having to disgrace the one design class.

If you can't afford the cost of a used comp tip mast (which is practically nothing if you look hard enough) how can you afford liability insurance? Maybe you don't belong on the race coarse....

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PostPosted: Sun Oct 06, 2013 3:37 pm 
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stupidpancakes wrote:
Really? sticking to the class rules drives people away? i would suggest the opposite. I sat dormant for year from Hobie 16 racing because of the lack of one design racing in Div 9. I can give two rip about regatta points, but the fact that a regatta is a HCANA points event ensures quality one design sailing. I will not waste anymore of my time on a horribly run open class handicap regattas.

Telling someone they cant be scored because they are 1up, have aftermarket sails, lack a comptip is not excluding them. In most cause they are still welcomed on the race coarse. Newbies are still granted a cheap racing experience without having to disgrace the one design class.

If you can't afford the cost of a used comp tip mast (which is practically nothing if you look hard enough) how can you afford liability insurance? Maybe you don't belong on the race coarse....


While that's a very pointed and decisive post, I followed the facebook link at the bottom of your signature which includes pictures from the Fleet 53 Charleston regatta in June...

- https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid ... =1&theater

... I see about a half dozen H16's in the pictures - 1 has a square top sail, another has a roller furled jib, and there appears to be a sailor holding an aluminum hiking stick. If you play by the 100% book and not "disgrace the one design class" then those are all class rules violations. So were all the violating boats excluded from scoring?

There results are posted on the JIYC website - http://www.jiyc.org/JIYC_2013Results_sun.htm

It appears boat #109875 with the roller Jib was allowed to complete and be scored and placed #5 overall. Isn't that Carter's boat in 3rd place with the square top rig?

This is my point. If you didn't exclude them from scoring, then you bent the class rules to accommodate them. Thus, you've arbitrarily decided when and where to apply the rules.

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PostPosted: Sun Oct 06, 2013 6:28 pm 
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It is true the regatta we participated in last June, we had a couple non class legal boats(conductive tillers were made class legal last year). I wouldn't say we altered the class rules, just that nobody exercised the right to protest a boat based on the class rules. I've been to a regatta that was advertised as a one design class that the regatta organizer was insulted at the mentioning of protesting a boat in regards to the class rules.

Carter was aware well before he came that there a chance of him not getting scored. He hard no hard feelings towards it and was excited for his first time racing. With there only being 6 boats registered it was easy for everybody to voice their opinion on the non class legal boat. When Carter could count the number of times he'd sailed on one hand, nobody cared.

Did you notice that only one boat got scored for every race? This was a last minute thing we did to get a group of newbies some experience in racing before trying to persuade them into attending the points regatta in Charlotte. It wasn't advertised as a HCANA event. Everybody that showed up got everything they were expecting, some more.

My writing does suck so my message may not be clear. All i am trying to say is i don't think there is a group out there being turned away from racing that warrants a need to change the class rules.

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PostPosted: Mon Oct 07, 2013 7:17 am 
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mmiller wrote:
That said... I would not discourage someone with non-class parts from participating.

Matt, I'm not meaning to pick on you, but this sums up my issue. I would love to have heard from you that "I would encourage someone with an old boat and non-class parts to participate."

Let me repeat. I support one class ideas. I think they are good. I think the Hobie 16 has shown an impressive history of surviving. The question in my mind is where will it be in twenty years and if there are ways we can help improve its chances of survival.

I assume that like many people, when you pick up an old boat and think about going racing, you look up the class rules to see what you need to do to race. I look up the rules and find I don't have a comp-tip mast. I need to replace the tramp, and find one for half the cost (and maybe half the life, but if I'm still sailing ten years down the road, my doctor and I are going to be happy). But that means I can no longer race my boat. My heavy, forty year-old boat.

Now I might find two or three races a year to go to, because I live in a place where the Hobie fleets are either dead or on life support. And a hundred or more miles away. I'm not going to invest several thousand dollars into something that has limited opportunities. I'll think about the Laser or Sunfish fleets that are nearer to me and race twice a week.

What I'm hearing is that fleets are using a wink and nod approach. Show up and sure, we'll let your illegal boat race. Well maybe. Probably. I just spent a few hours on the road and no one is sure whether I can race or not. That's encouraging. And this is assuming I figure out Hobie fleets have a wink and nod approach and don't follow the rules that they say are the rules. I guess I'm wondering what other rules Hobie has a wink and nod approach. Is port/starboard a wink and nod as well?

Instead of a wink and a nod, and a maybe and a probably, why can't we figure out a rule to address this situation? Doesn't say much about our abilities to solve problems. And as Matt said, we won't discourage people but we also won't be encouraging them. And in twenty years, when we have an even bigger fleet of old boats that can only race with a wink and a nod, will the Hobie 16 be dead?

Best of luck,

Jim Clark-Dawe


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