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PostPosted: Mon Nov 04, 2013 11:27 am 
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Been debating between the two Revolutions, and I'm starting to think that the way that they can handle a sail will be the deciding factor.

I've seen reports that the Revo 13 is only .25 to .5 mph faster than the Revo 11. That's not a huge difference for me... but how much better is the maneuverability of the Revo 11?? That's something that's kinda hard to quantify.

I was only able to demo the Revo 13, and it was very fast with the Turbo fins. I liked it a lot... but the small creek I was able to test it in did have me grabbing the paddle a lot for reversing, to turn around. Had me questioning the Revo 13....

Anyway, I'm 5'9", 155 lbs... if that makes any difference.

One benefit for the Revolution 13 is that I could potentially toss somebody on the back while I scoot around the small bay areas, or down river, or whatever. Not sure how often I'd do that, tho, if even practical.... so I think that the way that the two Revolutions compare in terms of sailing is what will make up my mind. If tracking is all that's important in sailing, then the Revolution 13 would be better, no??

Thanks for any advice!!


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PostPosted: Mon Nov 04, 2013 3:47 pm 
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An interesting question. I've used the Revo 13 and I own a Revo 11, but never sailed either. I think they perform similarly on the water, but I love my Revo11 for its easy portage and maneuverability with the sailing rudder installed.
I just got my sail for the Revo11 last week, but haven't had a chance to sail it yet. When I do (maybe next weekend?) I'll post up my thoughts on it for whatever its worth.


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PostPosted: Mon Nov 04, 2013 7:57 pm 
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The Revo 11 is more lively, maneuvers quicker, cruises slightly more efficiently up to about 4.25 MPH, is easier to lift, load and store and more fun IMO. Both can handle a passenger in the cargo area (smaller one for the R-11) but the Revo 13 is certainly more capable in that consideration. The small difference in cockpit length is not a factor for most folks up to about 6' tall.

The question you asked though is about sailing. The Revo 13 sails better and IMO is arguably the best all-around sailer. It is not as tender (more stable), has a little more hike out room, the mainsheet angle is closer to optimal for sail efficiency.

I see them as two different boats altogether with distinctly different personalities, but they're both excellent, versatile and fun. I would liken them to a sports car vs a family sedan. I don't think you will go wrong with either. 8)


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PostPosted: Mon Nov 04, 2013 9:44 pm 
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Roadrunner,

I'm glad you chimed in. I think it was you that logged hundreds, maybe even thousands of miles in his Revo 11? ... and said he didn't regret purchasing it over the Revo 13?

I'm starting to flirt with the idea of getting this Hobie for the purpose of heading offshore -- anywhere from 5 to 12 miles out -- toward a few islands near my neck of the.... seas.

At what point would you think that a Revolution 13 would be a better choice in such a scenario over a Revolution 11? Sailing probably won't come for several months after getting the kayak... but it's something I will definitely have to do when I get my Hobie.

Starting to lean toward the 13 for the potential to head out 12 miles into the wide open ocean.... but your thought that the Revolution is the "more fun" of the two has me second guessing myself for the twelfth time in 3 days.

Anyway, when I demoed the Revo 13, I did pick it up by the side handle and think I'd have no problem being able to carry that baby with one arm.... so really not sure why I wouldn't go that way. But I'm still not particularly big or small, just all-around average.

P.S. -- Did you use a GPS when measuring those cruising speeds, or differences??


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PostPosted: Tue Nov 05, 2013 12:48 am 
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DoctorBuzz wrote:
I think it was you that logged hundreds, maybe even thousands of miles in his Revo 11? ... and said he didn't regret purchasing it over the Revo 13?
More or less. I probably have about 1000+/- miles on my Revo 11. We all probably start to sound alike after awhile!

Quote:
I'm starting to flirt with the idea of getting this Hobie for the purpose of heading offshore -- anywhere from 5 to 12 miles out -- toward a few islands near my neck of the.... seas.
This is a little different than going up a narrow creek and using a paddle to turn around. For open water and distance to cover, my hands down choice would be the Adventure or (Adventure Island if you want to sail) -- it's the cruiser of the Hobie line. If you're looking at 10 to 24 miles round trip, you need speed and the Adventure is the fastest. It's also the smoothest (best ride) in open water, the quietest in all waters and tracks the best. Wind and chop have the least effect on this boat. It is the most capable offshore kayak Hobie makes. I might add that it also has the shallowest draft of the three and does a pretty fair job in those "skinny" waters as well.
Image

Maybe not what you're looking for now, but the Adventure Island is extremely stable, moves you quickly without fatigue and can be used as a straight kayak as well -- is a cinch to sail. these boats can get a little wetter though -- don't know where you're from or the water temperature.

The Revo 13 would be my second choice for open water. Frankly it's a great all around boat. Not as fast, smooth or as good at tracking as the Adventure, it nevertheless handles offshore conditions well and is usually drier. It "fast" cruises about .3 MPH slower than the Adventure.

The Revo 11 is also solid in the ocean, tends to bob over the seas more than through it (Adventure) and its smaller length requires more rudder attention, especially in following seas. It would not be as good a distance boat as either of the others but it can do the job. It cruises about .3 slower than the Revo 13 on a "fast" cruise.
Quote:
P.S. -- Did you use a GPS when measuring those cruising speeds, or differences??
I record and log my cruise times and distances as well as trip times and distances. using GPS -- also note water and wind conditions. "Fast cruise" is distance I cover in an hour on average at a "workman" rate. I have lots of data!

This ought to cloud up your choices even more. Ideally you would demo all three and see how they feel to you. Next, you should determine your priorities, as each of these boats excels in different areas. Finally, each can do everything, although not with the same ease. Quick summary -- most fun Revo 11, best all around Revo 13, most capable Adventure. Tough choice! 8)


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PostPosted: Fri Nov 08, 2013 3:02 pm 
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All real practical & genuine advice based upon personal experience from Roadrunner - which is exactly what we have come to expect from him.

Just one additional observation when it comes to travelling miles off shore with the expectation of being able to sail: the daggerboard... Don't forget the daggerboard!!

The Adventure and AIs are the only Hobies with this option available and it transforms the sailing experience by allowing you to sail significantly better upwind than is possible on any of the non-daggerboard boats.

If your intention is to travel long distances out to sea and to use the sail to overcome the distances AND you cannot rely on the wind always being on or behind the beam of the boat then I think you should consider carefully the merits of being to sail reliably both upwind and downwind.

Bear in mind also that windspeed is also a vital consideration: in case you haven't picked this up yet you can only comfortably sail these boats in ~force 4 and below. And you should plan on the basis of speed under sail being of the order of ~3-3.5 knots tops in my experience - you can get more in favourable conditions of wind, wave, tide and sailing direction but a maximum of 3-3.5 kts should be your planning assumption in favourable conditions. In other words you are not going to sail faster than you can pedal and you can always pedal directly towards your destination whereas, when sailing, you cannot guarantee this and your speed made good (the speed you approach your destination in a straight line) may be significantly less than this unless the wind allows you to point your boat directly at your destination and achieve your planning speed.

A bit off-topic but I can't avoid making the comment at this point that a GPS is an indispensible tool IMO for kayak pedal/sail "voyaging" because it allows you to determine your actual course and speed made good given the effects of wind, current and wave (which can be significant in such a small and slow vessel) and thus to determine the best means of achieving your objective.

Finally, a longer waterline will help to reduce sideslip under sail more than a short waterline, whether your boat has a daggerboard (or keel) or not... But this effect will probably be most noticeable in a boat without a daggerboard. This would suggest that the least sideslip (without deploying a daggerboard) would be experienced in the Adventure, then the Revo 13, then the Revo 11

For my money, while the Revolutions are clearly great boats and despite the fact that I have never been in one, for a sailing Hobie I cannot imagine choosing one of them over the Adventure simply because of the daggerboard.

Hope this helps.


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PostPosted: Fri Nov 08, 2013 3:16 pm 
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Spot on Roadrunner, Stobbo.
8)

_________________
Mark
Adventure Island- 2014
Revolution 13- 2013


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PostPosted: Sat Mar 22, 2014 3:48 pm 
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I have owned both the Revo 11 & Revo 13 with Sails together at the same time (I just recently sold the 11) and I can tell you that there is in-fact a major difference in sail performance.

My partner and I went to a recent Hobie Event and the Hobie Company (support Boat) saw that I had at least a 1 knot advantage despite me weighting 85kg in the Revo 13 and my partner weighting 75kg in the Revo 11.

Ive put it down to the length and tracking shape of the 13. There is a noticeable middle hull protrusion on the 13 (which at speed, you ride on) where as the 11's is less pronounced meaning more hull in the water slowing down its performance.

Thats my thoughts.

Cheers


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PostPosted: Mon Mar 24, 2014 9:45 am 
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Heh bumping a 4 month old thread eh? I wonder which one the original poster eventually purchased?

Since this thread came out, I got a chance to sail my Revo 11 more often and can finally contribute on that topic. Its skittish in high winds (so buy some sidekicks!) but its a ton of fun and fast (as fast as you can pedal-sprint). The stability issue and my lack of sidekicks prevents me from using the sail offshore in anything but flat calm conditions: throw in some 2ft waves and forget about it. I end up sailing in the bay instead.

I still haven't sailed the Revo 13, but by just paddling/pedaling the two, I can see the bigger revo is the winner. One of the things that struck me about the longer bow of the 13 is that when going into the waves offshore, the extra length up front spares a bit of sea spray in the face compared to the 11. Also riding a wave back towards the shore, the 13 seemed to "surf" a bit better as well.


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PostPosted: Mon Mar 24, 2014 5:27 pm 
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In regards to speed difference, the more miles you do, the more speed might matter. .25 to .5 mph difference will add up real fast on a 12-20 mile day. If someone is only looking to do 5-6 mile trips, the speed difference may not have much influence on the experience.

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PostPosted: Tue Mar 25, 2014 5:23 pm 
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Jcanracer wrote:
Heh bumping a 4 month old thread eh? I wonder which one the original poster eventually purchased?

:) I figured that I'd wait until early 2014 to purchase after I made up my mind, but there's been a lot of other stuff going on so my mind has really not had time to settle. I had also intended to buy used and save a few to several hundred dollars.

One thing that did not cross my mind at the time was the Hobie Sport, but when I saw a 2012 available for $1,200.... I was really starting to do some more research last week. I then saw that the 2014 Sport was redesigned. There's a video on YouTube of a Sport versus a Revo 11... and I think the Revo 11 won the first match, but the Sport nudged him out on the last match. They're virtually the same speed. Only problem is that I'd have the pedals set on the last notch, and I'm only average height..... but for $1,200 I was going to buy it. Only problem is that the yak was 3 or 4 hour drive away, so I had to wait until Friday after work before I was going to go pick it up.... but early Friday morning, the posting was removed. :(

There are a lot of rivers, bays, and there's definitely open water here, too. Wondering if I really need a "all purpose" Revo 13, or if I wouldn't be happier with a 2014 Sport *and* an Adventure/Tandem Island. Only problem is that I'm not going to be spending that kinda money just yet. In the process of changing jobs.... so I'm thinking I'll be able to wait and see what kinda changes Hobie has for their 2015 kayaks. It just never ends. One serious problem for me is that I see how Hobie updates their kayaks every year, or at least every other year it seems. It's kinda influencing me to continue the "wait and see" game, which is just giving me anxiety problems. Hopefully I can just find a good used one sometime soon so I can calm my nerves. :P

Wndrfl wrote:
In regards to speed difference, the more miles you do, the more speed might matter. .25 to .5 mph difference will add up real fast on a 12-20 mile day. If someone is only looking to do 5-6 mile trips, the speed difference may not have much influence on the experience.

That's what I'm thinking. I would rarely go more than 12 miles round trip, and perhaps a half mph slower pace would actually be the more enjoyable choice. ;)

I think that Roadrunner's comment will really be the deciding factor for me:

Roadrunner wrote:
The Revo 13 sails better and IMO is arguably the best all-around sailer. It is not as tender (more stable), has a little more hike out room, the mainsheet angle is closer to optimal for sail efficiency.


I'm going to try to wait and get a good deal on a used 2013/2014 Revo13... so that way I'll be able to afford the sail, sidekicks, turbo fins, etc. Definitely what I'm going to try to do, but another $1,200 Sport and/or a $2,500 Tandem Island could change my mind. :twisted:

I wish Roadrunner would comment about sailing his 2014 Sport. That should be the most stable Hobie sailing kayak to date. Would be very interested in such a review...


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PostPosted: Tue Mar 25, 2014 6:05 pm 
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DoctorBuzz wrote:
I wish Roadrunner would comment about sailing his 2014 Sport. That should be the most stable Hobie sailing kayak to date. Would be very interested in such a review...
Your wish is my command: viewtopic.php?f=11&t=49343&p=221266#p221266
8)


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PostPosted: Tue Mar 25, 2014 6:36 pm 
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Roadrunner wrote:
DoctorBuzz wrote:
I wish Roadrunner would comment about sailing his 2014 Sport. That should be the most stable Hobie sailing kayak to date. Would be very interested in such a review...
Your wish is my command: viewtopic.php?f=11&t=49343&p=221266#p221266
8)


Hmm... I remember reading that, but I must have totally ignored the sailing section since you were primarily comparing it to the AI.

Any thoughts when comparing it to the Revolutions for sailing? You said the Revo 13 provided the "better" main sheet angle. How does the Sport compare in this regard to the Revos?

I also didn't pick up on the tight pedal area, as well. This seems like a deal killer, really... It's too bad they couldn't just make the Sport a couple inches longer.


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PostPosted: Tue Mar 25, 2014 11:11 pm 
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DoctorBuzz wrote:
I remember reading that, but I must have totally ignored the sailing section since you were primarily comparing it to the AI. Any thoughts when comparing it to the Revolutions for sailing? You said the Revo 13 provided the "better" main sheet angle. How does the Sport compare in this regard to the Revos?
I don't recall mentioning anything about the Adventure Island (AI) in the Sport review. My friend was sailing an Adventure (kayak only, no amas, small sail) -- an entirely different beast.

The sheeting angle has to do with the distance between the clew and where the mainsheet pivots at or near the stern. The Sport has a shorter distance between the mast and stern, so when close hauled, the luff is nice and flat, but the foot a little loose. With no boom and no outhaul, there is no way to correct it. I like this better than the opposite though -- a loose luff that you can get with the Adventure (unless you modify it). The Revo 13 has the closest to optimal angle IMO.

Considering all things, I like the sailing experience of the Revo 13 best (among kayaks, with no Sidekick). It has the best mix of stability, performance and tacking. The Adventure has an ace in the hole though that none of the other kayaks have (excluding the AI and TI) -- a daggerboard. This gives it the best upwind performance. Hope this helps. 8)


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PostPosted: Wed Mar 26, 2014 7:29 am 
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Roadrunner wrote:
Considering all things, I like the sailing experience of the Revo 13 best (among kayaks, with no Sidekick). It has the best mix of stability, performance and tacking.


Well you have my attention! Especially since I was considering upgrading the Revo11 to a Revo13 this year, AND I am interested in the best sailing experience without the sidekicks.


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