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 Post subject: 17 Wing Issue
PostPosted: Wed Mar 26, 2014 3:04 pm 
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Site Rank - Deck Hand

Joined: Wed Mar 26, 2014 2:19 pm
Posts: 7
Location: Casper, WY
I have a 2008 (so says the sn) starboard hull that I am having a hell of time getting the wing to come out of. I have to use a large sledge hammer, 2x4, and a LOT of effort for it to come free. My beach friends laugh, I can't have this anymore..

I have tired my wing in others hulls and it works fine, their wings also do not want to come out of my hull (they all go in, but very tight). I do not notice that the wing bangs around once in the hull. I do not want to cut a hole in my hull just to "peak" inside unless I absolutly have to. I thought about just bending the wing tube but I am very uncomfortable with that thought and I want the wing to fit in my other 17's.

Any ideas?

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 Post subject: Re: 17 Wing Issue
PostPosted: Thu Mar 27, 2014 6:18 pm 
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Joined: Mon Dec 22, 2008 7:02 pm
Posts: 124
Location: Rockford, IL
I had a 17, and one side was more difficult than the other. Make sure it's absolutely clean, no sand. Smooth the inside of the tubes with emery paper. You might try coating it with some thinned epoxy to make it more slippery.
Spraying silicone lube on the wing and in the hull tube helped with mine.
If the wing works in other boats, then it's your hull tube and not the wing. Do you swap wings for transport, and does the port wing come easily out of the starboard hull tube?
I also found that having 2 people insert and pull the wing helped keep it from cocking and getting stuck.

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 Post subject: Re: 17 Wing Issue
PostPosted: Thu Mar 27, 2014 6:24 pm 
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Joined: Mon May 09, 2005 10:25 am
Posts: 2514
Location: Jersey Shore
Sounds like a defect in the wing tube socket. Maybe it wasn't installed perfectly straight. There is a shoe that is built into the bottom of the hull that the socket fits in to. This supports the end of the socket. I imagine if the shoe wasn't located just right, the angle of the socket would be off and this would cause a fit issue.

Another possibility could be that the opening of the sockdet has some imperfections from molding and these are causing more friction on the wing tube. I would check this first. Maybe you just need to sand or grind the opening a little to add some more clearance to the fit. I would also try just installing the wing into one socket at a time so you can see if one of the sockets is tight. Try to determine whether it's an issue with friction in one of the sockets or if its an issue of the angle of the sockets being off.

One thing you might also try, before you do something drastic- take the inboard support tube off of the wing (two people pulling on the wing should be able to spread it open enough to pop the tube out). This should make the wing a little more flexible. Then try and see how it fits. This should help give you an idea of how you might modify (bend) the wing tube to get it to fit better. Maybe just changing the length of the inboard support tube a little will make the wing fit better.

Anyway, I think you need to try to get a better understanding of what's causing the problem before you modify something. I'm thinking maybe you could rub colored chalk on the wing tubes and install them. Then pull them out and see where the chalk is wiped off to see where they're dragging. I don't know, just throwing out some ideas.

I agree with the above as well, keeping the sockets clean and pulling the wing out evenly is critical, but since you said you have other 17's, I assume you probably already know this.

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 Post subject: Re: 17 Wing Issue
PostPosted: Fri Mar 28, 2014 4:05 am 
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Joined: Sat May 02, 2009 5:22 am
Posts: 451
Location: Columbus, Indiana
Perhaps it time to check out just how watertight those wing sockets are....with both wings removed from the hulls, fill the sockets with water and let it sit over night. If the water level goes down, it time to repair the wing socket.

I like Gluvit epoxy to repair the inside of the socket followed by a fresh wrap of fiberglass and resin on the outside of the socket (inside the hull) which requires cutting a hole in the boat to reach... :o followed by installing a access port to cover up that hole in your boat.....

PM me and I will walk you thought it. Having repaired all four of my wing sockets, I have a pretty good system that works well for me.

The hardest part of most repairs like this having no experience....ask for help and it is not too difficult to do.... :D

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 Post subject: Re: 17 Wing Issue
PostPosted: Fri Mar 28, 2014 2:33 pm 
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Joined: Wed Mar 26, 2014 2:19 pm
Posts: 7
Location: Casper, WY
SRM, I think you are on to something with the shoe. I have tried to insert just one side at a time and it works and seems pretty smooth. Took off the support tube off and tried that with no luck. The hull tube seems pretty smooth and I don't have any sand in it. I used a hose (last fall) to clean the tubes out and check for leaks.

I like and will try the chalk trick, once I can get the boat outside with enough room to swing the hammer.

I also purchased some sewer pipe of about the same diameter to try to measure the angles but had a hard time making that work correctly. I may try again.

Not sure what the fix would be for a misaligned hull tube or which one it might be, or is it both? I have to pound on one a little then move to the other, and so on. Yes, I have tried soap and other solutions but they are bound up to much for them to work. The hull is pretty leak free so I really don't want to punch holes unless I have a real solution.

Thanks for the ideas, and please keep them coming.

Matt or Matt?

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 Post subject: Re: 17 Wing Issue
PostPosted: Fri Mar 28, 2014 6:15 pm 
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Joined: Mon May 09, 2005 10:25 am
Posts: 2514
Location: Jersey Shore
If the socket is misaligned, then that would require some fairly extensive surgery to remove the shoe and relocate it in the correct spot. Not saying it isn't possible, but you would basically have to cut out the shoe along the bond line and then bond it in a new location. This would be tough since the shoe is also now bonded to the wing socket.

I think that if you can identify where the wing tube is dragging in the socket, maybe you could get in there and grind away some of the material in the tube in that particular spot. I think you should definitely try inserting pipes into the sockets (PVC pipe or something similar). Cut the pipes so they stick out of the hull about two or three feet. Then have one or two people hold the wing up next to the pipes while another sights along them to see if there are any differences in the angles.

Adding access port(s) to the hull really isn't a big deal. I actually think all boats benefit from having ports installed because they really allow you to keep the hulls bone dry. Without ports, the hulls will always have some water in them and that water is eventually going to find its way into the fiberglass and likely cause delamination down the road. An access port behind the front crossbar will also allow you to reinforce the centerboard trunk where the spring seats. My boat is a 2007 and it cracked at the spring seat allowing the hull to take on a huge amount of water. Unfortunately, I think the quality control on this last batch of 17s was pretty poor. It seems like there are quite a few issues with boats from this build period.

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 Post subject: Re: 17 Wing Issue
PostPosted: Sat Mar 29, 2014 9:18 am 
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Joined: Sun Jan 20, 2008 2:13 pm
Posts: 35
I had trouble like yours but not as bad, sanding the inside of the offending tube fixed it.
Once you have used marking or pipes to determine which tube has the problem and how that tube is misaligned you can sand away at the problem area with a drum sander. The drum sander can be made up from a 3/8 in. (or whatever size your drill is) steel rod with cardboard duct taped to and wrapped around the end to build it up to close to the right size, coarse sandpaper taped to the cardboard will do the grinding. The tubes are thin so in the end you may end up needing a deckport so you can reinforce the outside of the tube, or maybe not.

I agree deckports are good for the longterm health of the hulls especially if they are stored outside in freezing conditions, but it still feels like a violation to carve holes in solid decks.


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 Post subject: Re: 17 Wing Issue
PostPosted: Sat Mar 29, 2014 10:30 am 
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Joined: Sat May 02, 2009 5:22 am
Posts: 451
Location: Columbus, Indiana
If that sleeve is cracked and leaking water into your boat you will need to repair it.I like Gluvit Epoxy waterproof sealant for this repair.Before you start epoxying that sleeve, you will want to thoroughly clean out that sleeve with acetone. I built a tool. It's a long plunger with a rubber stopper screwed into a piece of old broom handle..........that way I could pump acetone in and out of any crevice to better clean and increase the bonding of the epoxy.

I made my drum sander with a ceiling fastener (lag style screw in on one side and a 1/4-20 coupling on the other) that screwed into a 24" piece of old broom handle. Than I duct taped long pieces of emery cloth on the other end and built a drum sander the length I needed. Install the hex end of 1/4-20 coupling into my variable speed 1/2" drill and sanded away slowly..... now vacuum and clean again

To get the epoxy into that wing socket, I took a paint roller and straight out the steel rod to form a long Q tip. This way I was able to cover the entire inside surface of that sleeve. I could pump the epoxy in and out of any crack. Apply epoxy in thin layers for less sanding.

Let sit over night and lightly hone out that sleeve again with the drum sander to fit................

That should seal your wing sleeve but may also want to rebuilt that fiberglass sleeve by wrapping the outside of the sleeve with fiberglass and resin. This will require a new access port just to reach it.

The sleeve is fiber glassed into what looks like a cereal bowl upside down and that's fiberglass to the inside of the hull partly of the bottom and partly on the side of the hull. This "horn" is rather thin and a weak link to the whole wing system, In my opinion.

My aft port side horn broke loose once while sailing offshore in high winds on Lake Michigan with my kids. I have a triple trapezes system and we overloaded the wing. Pretty scary situation. We sailed straight to shore..................and so these repairs where needed. :cry: and our sailing vacation was shortened.......... :(

But now my wings sleeve are Bullet Proof...........And I can really drive my boat hard........ :o

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 Post subject: Re: 17 Wing Issue
PostPosted: Thu Apr 03, 2014 9:08 am 
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Joined: Wed Mar 26, 2014 2:19 pm
Posts: 7
Location: Casper, WY
After reading all the great posts and ideas I took to my 17 to see what I could find. I have not cut a hole in her yet, but will (unless this is a warranty issue). We toasted Hobie's life and how it changed ours as we went to work.

I took my 2" sewer pipe, cut it in two and stuck in all four of the hull tubes. I used a marker to draw a line on the pipe for how far it dropped into each tube. The pipe dropped into all the tubes except the aft starboard tube where it stalled about 5 inches above the line from the aft port tube. Problem #1.

I then installed both pipes into the starboard hull and lined up my wing with the help of a friend. The angle of the piping is different than the wing tubing. Problem #2.

When I lined up the forward pipe and wing, the aft wing and pipe where off at the top of the wing by about an inch and a half with the angle of the wing being closer to the ground and the pipe being more upright.

Some facts: The wing will fit into the starboard aft hull tube by itself, it is small in diameter then the piping I am using, but not by much.

The Hull tubes are clean, I have used liquid soap for lubrication. There seem to be no burrs or cracks that are stopping the sewer pipe from going all the way into the hull.

I may be able to grind out the hull tube as described in the forum and re-glass the tube to possibly fix Problem #1, but the angle is still not correct so we still have Problem #2. It is not a known that this will work. The wing may not seat correctly after doing this work. It will probably come out easier, as it can't get any worse.

I really do not know which hull tube has the incorrect angle, but the aft one is getting my vote.

I do not travel with my wings stuck in the boat, this is not good for the tubes or wings and makes the boat wider on the trailer, and more apt to get blown around on the highway in the wind, flying a hull on the highway is NOT cool. Having the wings attached to the trailer almost flat against the tramp also allows the wing tubes to drain.

Questions:

I am pretty experienced with working on the 17 hulls, this is not my first rodeo as I now have 5 hulls (long story). I am not comfortable with removing, or attempting to remove and move the hull tube cup, not sure it can even be done without puncturing the hull. If it could be moved, how do you change the angle without cutting out the complete hull tube and starting over (yikes)?

Is this a warranty issue as this hull is only a few years old?

Thank you!

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 Post subject: Re: 17 Wing Issue
PostPosted: Thu Apr 03, 2014 9:37 am 
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Joined: Mon May 09, 2005 10:25 am
Posts: 2514
Location: Jersey Shore
If it's a 5+ year old boat, I doubt it would be covered by warranty anymore, but maybe still worth a shot. The bigger problem would probably be that there may not even be any 17 hulls left to replace this anyway.

1st, you say that the pipe didn't fit all the way down into the aft starboard tube. My first question would be, does the wing get harder to install/remove only in that last 5 inches, or is it equally difficult all the way in the tube? If it is only the last 5 inches, then maybe it isn't an angle issue and you just need to grind away some material in the bottom of the tube. Does the wing seat all the way down to the white tape mark?

Maybe look at the angle of the pipes in your other starboard hulls for comparison. Install the 2" pipes into the wing sockets and measure the distance between the tops of the pipes. You can also use a framing square set against the hull to approximate the angle variations between the good and bad hulls.

You said the angle of the wing socket is more upright than the angle of the wing tube. I'm still thinking that maybe you could remove the inboard wing tube (the secondary tube that goes fore/aft) and flex the wing a little more. If the wing socket is too upright, that would lead me to think that if you shortened the overall length of the wing, it might help. This would be a little bit of a drastic measure, but much less so than chopping holes in the boat and trying to relocate the wing socket shoe. I'm thinking you could chop the wing itself along the fore/aft section of tube, cut out maybe an inch of tube, and then splice it back together with an inner sleeve riveted inside. The thought being that it is probably easier to rework the wing to fit the hull socket then it is to rework the hull socket to fit the wing.

Just thinking out loud again...

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 Post subject: Re: 17 Wing Issue
PostPosted: Thu Apr 03, 2014 11:14 am 
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Joined: Sun Jan 20, 2008 2:13 pm
Posts: 35
If the sockets are not parallel there will almost certainly be big trouble installing/removing them. If a 2" PVC pipe won't slide into the socket, then there is something wrong with the socket - not just the location of the lower mounting. Does the socket hold water? Brendan Castile is the warranty guy at Hobie.


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 Post subject: Re: 17 Wing Issue
PostPosted: Fri May 09, 2014 11:03 am 
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Joined: Wed Mar 26, 2014 2:19 pm
Posts: 7
Location: Casper, WY
I tried to install the wing without the center tube as suggested but it still got stuck, only about three inches into the boat and I had to get the hammer out to get the wing out. I'm afraid major surgery is ahead for this hull and I am frustrated by that option as it looks to be very involved. My quick solution came by chance of my dealer letting me know about the last two new in the box 17 hulls becoming available. I had a weak moment and bought them both. Lord knows why, but I have a Hobie disorder.

So the new hulls are very nice but when I went to start putting the boat together, the cross bar end caps on the starboard hull where installed incorrectly with the front and rear caps being reversed. Not sure why I have such issues with starboard hulls. Easy fix. I am just waiting until the snow storm this weekend to start finishing my setup, yes it's May in the Rockies. No, I have not tried the wing yet as I am waiting to put the frame together first and I am working in a storage garage with not much room and no heat.

I also found a 17 Sport in Yakima that had enough parts to use to put together another good boat so I can sell it, so I drove up and bought the partial boat. I am now a 17 hoarder having 9 17 hulls(not counting my H16), three and a half sets of wings, three masts and three complete sets of everything else. Anyone need parts? I have a 2008 starboard hull for sale with just a little wing tube issue.

Thank you all for the posts, I will start work on that hull later this summer but now must concentrate on getting a couple good 17's put together and ready for the season. I will update this post when I start that work. I also hope to post a picture of the newest Hobie 17 when I get it put together.

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