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PostPosted: Sat Jul 28, 2007 2:03 pm 
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When racing in a mixed fleet, the boats are usually handicapped. Neverthelless, different weather favors different boats/rigs, so there is never total parity. Additionally, it's a natural function of racing that skippers always seek advantage where they can.

The big argument against pedals is that it represents an alternate method of propulsion, independent of wind. Could you handicap for pedals? Why not?. You could even have it tiered for, say, light, medium or heavy winds at the start.of the race, without getting too complicated.

Would it be perfect? About as perfect as the current system. But it would provide a means for AIs to compete in a mixed fleet, sharing in the fun and competition. Fortunately, there is a lot more to winning a sailboat race than how furiously one can pedal! 8)


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PostPosted: Sat Jul 28, 2007 2:26 pm 
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Correct me if I am wrong but the AI can sail without the drive installed, so remove it and sail!

The current portsmouth system works pretty well, it allows people of varying talents and boats to all race together in relative fairness. There is no way to perfectly handicap between all boats but in my mind I cannot see any fair way to handicap for the drive. The problem lies in the fact that you can peddle faster and slower and some people are in much better shape than others so they would have an advantage!

I hate to say it but the AI could beat my boat upwind any day of the week just by pointing straight upwind and peddling.

I would love to see an AI and would love to own one, but if they are going to be racing against me and claiming that they are winnning I had better not see peddling.

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PostPosted: Sat Jul 28, 2007 2:33 pm 
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I guess the Island has to be in a class all by itself.
The mirage is an intragal part of sailing it. I once broke a cable on the drive and felt naked trying to sail w/o it.

The example of a cat sailor hiking-out and flying a hull is valid in that athletic ability & strength might are important to sailing ability. Given 2 exactly equal cats racing, the sailor able to jump quickest to the other side during a jibe and able to have the arm strength and stamia to hike out the farthest has an advantage.

I have heard arguments that when an Island uses the mirage drive it is including athletic ability - not just sailing ability.

No, padeling isn't the same thing as sailing. But, denying an Island the mirage drive removes nearly all of the human athleticism from his sailing equation. While athleticism remains a big part for the cat sailor. Is the point of racing just matching 2 boats (if so we can install a remote control 'drone' in each boat); or are we matching 2 individuals - each taking advantage of how their boat was designed and human athleticism/stamina?

In moderate wind a "hiked-out" cat is probable faster than the Island x2. We only get to have our day in the sun in light wind against a cat.

Cat owners need to be nice to their Island brothers; after all if wind drops to zero who else is going to tow you back to the dock. :lol:

BTW I have seen races with cats, monohulls, some with 1 sail, some with an added spinnaker, and even wind surfers all in the same race. I believe a handicaping system and start time difference was used. Maybe racing "officials" could figure out how to class and include an Island.

No arguments or worries here. I am completely happy sailing the Island or using it in Kayak mode.

We get heat from kayakers who say paddling is the purest form of kayaking. We get heat for sailors who say pedaling while sailing is not sailing. OK, no problems - even with all the heat I still feel pretty Cool 8)

:D


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PostPosted: Sat Jul 28, 2007 3:04 pm 
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Like I said I would love to have an AI, it is a really cool product and no doubt is alot of fun.

Sailing it without the drive would be like.... the Windrider Tri's they do not hike at all and the sailor is more restricted than in the island. They have a rating and sail against cats, I actually did some informal racing against one of them a few weeks ago using portsmouth, and it was a blast.

I see what you are saying that there is definently some advantage to the more in shape sailor on cats, but the fitness does not propel the boat forward directly like the drive does.

No hard feeling at all, I am all for the AI, and want to be on the good side of anyone with one so if I am ever stuck without wind I can get a tow.

If someone could come up with a good way to handicap the drive then I would love to race and AI.

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PostPosted: Sun Jul 29, 2007 10:43 am 
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Why don't you ask the race committe of the particular race that you are "racing" in, and see what they think? I suspect that they will welcome you to sail by the rules, but if you are just going to pedal, then you probably shouldn't even be in their way. Do you think if I drove my sailboat with the engine around the race course so that I could "win" the race in my own head that they would appreciate that?


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 Post subject: AI Racing
PostPosted: Thu Aug 02, 2007 8:21 am 
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Location: Miami
The interesting thing about our racing is that it is so diverse.....monohulls vs. dinghys vs. windsurfers vs. kitesurfers vs. AI's. None of this is fair racing depending on the conditions. But hey, if you are racing a windsurfer with a sail TWICE as big as mine, in light wind, and you can beat him, that's good, even if you are pedaling. And if you are racing against a sailboat with a sail 4 or 5 times as big, vs. the Mirage Drive-sail combo, I think it is interesting racing.

FYI, here are the results so far:

Formula windsurfer, fastest if planing around the whole course.
Kiters, fastest downwind if planing, but not upwind. Formula always faster around the whole course. But the kiters are getting a lot faster all the time....they are changing their boards and making big gains.
Really light wind, AI is fastest around the course.
Longboard windsurfer with really big sail, fastest downwind, but maybe not upwind, in light airs...but we have not had the best guys on these lately.
Cats would probably be the fastest in semi-lighter/medium winds, I suspect, but we don't have any racing with us right now...working on that, though.
I don't think they can handle a Formula board when it is windy, though, but I bet in around 10-13 they could whup a Formula in an upwind/downwind.

But when I race an AI, I am racing and trying to beat the other boats, so I think it's racing, even if not in the traditional sense. And that is what makes it fun. The turbos are definitely fast though!


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Thu Aug 02, 2007 2:14 pm 
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Jim - I like your approach to racing, and enjoy all the reports.

I bought an Island to have fun. That includes fun "racing" without worrying about some comittee's standards or what is considered traditional racing.

Interesting point about how many other boats or windsurfers have much larger sails than the Island.

Comparing a human powered mirage drive to using a stinkpot outboard motor completly misses the point of the Island.

It's all about having competitive fun in creative ways involving human participation and skills within the given boat.

Anyone with experience sailing an Island would never give up the mirage drive. It is an intregal part of using the boat and not just for propulsion.

But hey. Those who insist on tradition :roll: can leave out the mirage drive, or better yet if they buy an Island - save money and buy one without the drive. :lol:


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 Post subject: More Racing
PostPosted: Mon Aug 13, 2007 2:35 pm 
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Last Wed, more of the same.....J-22's, Freedoms and a Laser all went down against the AI. Bobby Nabors, from Liquid Surf and Sail Fort Walton, had a good race with the Laser, back and forth, but pulled it out downwind. Lighter wind, Turbo Flippers, upwind and downwind, no reaching. Rumors of stronger wind this Wed., so we will see how it goes.


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Mon Aug 13, 2007 9:24 pm 
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Hey Jim,

Take along a well plug with you next time. Be sure to leash both plug and Mirage drive. While I used to leave my plug at home, I tried it once on a whim, and I was quite stunned with the increased performance of the AI, especially in a strong downwind. I didn't realize that the Mirage drive created that much drag when pedals are retracted against hull. Give'r a try, and let me know what you think.

RR,

I also can't resist the temptation to "virtually race" other sailboats, sometimes million dollar ones. But my favorite pastime is to pass powerboats in no wake zones, as they are putting along around 5mph, I zoom past them in full sail, full power to my turbofins, GPS reading nearly 10mph and no wake behind me. They usually repay the favor by blasting by me once out of the no wake zone, on plane, 30mph+.


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Mon Aug 13, 2007 10:28 pm 
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Yeah, we had this guy whipped until we passed put of the no wake zone! :D
Image


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Mon Aug 13, 2007 10:58 pm 
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I agree that the drive is part of the system, I just do not think that claiming you beat a boat when you have another system of propulsion is right. I am not allowed to paddle, why can you?

On another note, I heard that a guy around here got an Island, maybe I can take a ride on it or race it.

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Tue Aug 14, 2007 7:58 am 
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gree2056 wrote:
I am not allowed to paddle.


Don't worry I certainly won't tell the paddle police :lol:

Beg, Borrow or Rent an AI and give us your impressions. I think you will be pleasantly surprised.

Wife & I went sailing yesterday in our Islands. Wind dropped to almost nothing about 1/2 way thru the trip. Thankful to have those turbo fins.


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Tue Aug 14, 2007 9:30 am 
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When I said I wasn't allow to paddle I was talking about during racing. Believe me in light wind it is very temping to hand a foot over and give it a few kicks. But that would not be fair to other racers.

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Hobie 14T, "Blazin" I guess I am keeping her!


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Tue Aug 14, 2007 9:32 am 
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gree2056 wrote:
I heard that a guy around here got an Island, maybe I can take a ride on it or race it.


Watch out -- it can be infectious and is said to be incurable. 8)


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Fri Aug 17, 2007 12:54 pm 
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Nice wind Wed., around 8-13, J-24 with a genoa gave me a beating but I held everyone else off. Did not have the Turbo Flippers though, maybe could have been closer with those. Proportionally, I was slower in stronger winds against the rest of the fleet than I had been in the super light stuff. Did a home made barber hauler setup, which seemed to work well downwind to keep the sail drawing. I was inspired by the post the other guy did in the forum somewhere, but mine was a lot more basic without the cleats....maybe later with the fancier setup. Windsurfers would have dominated but were bogged down by heavy weed in the water.


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