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PostPosted: Thu Aug 30, 2007 1:10 pm 
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Joined: Thu Apr 19, 2007 10:34 am
Posts: 33
Location: Miami
Second time I have raced against keelboats with chutes....they are definitely faster than the AI downwind in the lighter stuff, Sonars and J-24 and 22's. Very tight races with them, sometimes I get them, but if I get a bad start, they are going to beat me. About 50-50 right now in terms of beating them, it's a good fight for sure.

Since the AI is new and confuses a lot of people, there has been a movement to get me put back into the windsurfer fleet instead of with the boats. Reasons were, "that thing is too wide on the starting line" and "he can just park on the line and then take off". Sailed with the boats anyway but last time I checked, AI is a boat and definitely not a windsurfer!

Other day, guy complained about my alternative propulsion....I had gotten him by about 2 boatlengths. I said, "yeah, well, how much sail area you got with that chute up? Over 500 sf?? I got around 55 and two little flippers, cmon!"


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PostPosted: Thu Aug 30, 2007 3:08 pm 
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Joined: Fri Jul 14, 2006 8:19 pm
Posts: 54
As an AI owner and conventional sailboat racer for many years I've been following this thread with some amusement and interest. None of my comments are meant to be a criticism of anyone in particular. Simply stated, any form of mechanical propulsion or body mechanics designed to advance a sailboat along a race course is not allowed in sailboat racing. Some classes, like catamarans, allow hiking or trapezing to maximize the effect of the sails, but you're only stabilizing the boat and allowing the sails to work. Sculling with a rudder is expressly prohibited, rocking a boat back and forth is not allowed and even hanging off of a shroud to help a boat tack more quickly is forbidden. While it may be entertaining to shadow a fleet of racing sailboats, it is in no way, shape or form the same as competing in a sailboat race.
I'm particularly writing this because I would very much like to see AIs accepted by race organizers. In order to race against other boats, they would have to remove their drives during the race and establish a portsmouth rating. I would really hate to see them get a bad reputation for interfering with races and demanding to use their drives during a race and turn yacht clubs and race committees against them. (again, I'm not suggesting anyone is doing this right now).
I also believe that AI racing could be established as a one-design with competition that would allow the use of the drives, something along the lines of a triathalon event, perhaps. First boat from the starting line to the cooler of beer could be a fine model for a race.
Todd Craig


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PostPosted: Thu Aug 30, 2007 4:38 pm 
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Joined: Fri Mar 23, 2007 8:12 am
Posts: 420
Location: Florida
I still greatly enjoy the reports; maybe just find a euphemism to use in place of the word racing?


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Thu Aug 30, 2007 7:43 pm 
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Hobie Approved Guru

Joined: Sat Nov 12, 2005 10:46 pm
Posts: 2416
Location: Escondido
Me too. It's not necessarily about joining the fleet or taking the trophy home, but having somebody to beat or be beaten by. It isn't necessarily about fairness or parity, but competition on your own terms. Racing against your GPS is OK, but if there is someone around to hone your skills against, its much more fun!

Jim's posts have been instructional in that they illustrate what a good sailor can do with the AI. As long as he's not interfering with the fleet, his "shadow" racing sounds exciting. The fleet knows he's not really in their race, and they don't seem to have any problems with his presence.

Pedaling is part of the unique aspect of the AI and integrates well with sailing. It also opens up a whole realm of possibilities racing from point A to point B; there's no reason not to exploit it. What better way to measure and refine it than in the presence of some other racers when that's all you have?

I think we all understand and agree that pedals would not be permitted in any official sailing race, and that's fine. I used to race sailboats and fully concur with the limitations for all official race entrants.

So why don't we call Jim a "race escort"? Jim, keep the reports coming anyway for those of us who enjoy hearing about your experiences.
8)


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PostPosted: Thu Aug 30, 2007 8:26 pm 
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Joined: Thu Jul 27, 2006 5:26 pm
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Location: Norman, OK
I doubt that this is ever going to be a real problem but some of the sailors don't like him there. They were complaining about him being to wide on the line.

Also you can't use the sail area idea, they are moving ALOT more boat than the AI. I would be willing to bet that the sail area is not proportional to the weight.

Almost everyone agrees that the flippers are not fair in traditional racing, but it would be neat to see the AI racing against other AI's. But if they are racing sailboats, pull the drive and sail the thing! Lets see how it compares, I imagine that the Portsmouth rating would be really high, so it should have a good chance against most boats.

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Hobie 14T, "Blazin" I guess I am keeping her!


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PostPosted: Fri Aug 31, 2007 5:53 am 
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Joined: Fri Mar 23, 2007 8:12 am
Posts: 420
Location: Florida
When younger I used to go out with friends on deserted country roads to race my tricked-out Dodge Super Bee against other hot rods. Everone called it racing even though we were not NASCAR approved or sactioned by any racing comittee.

Don't the high and mighty sailing committe gods figure out how to hadicap a mixed race all the time? Where some boats have 2 sails and others only have 1 sail, where cats & monohulls sail together. Don't they use a formula to determine different starting times? Seems to me such a smart "committe" could compute a hadicap for the Island with the mirage drive. Treat it like a boat with 2 sails.

Hobie even uses the terms "mast" "sails" and "clew" to define the bottom propulsion of the mirage drive.

If not, I say the heck with them. They don't own the water or the wind. They don't have a copyright on the word racing. I Don't need no trophy or uppity yacht club anyway. :lol:

Jim - screw the naysayers, damn the topedoes, and full speed ahead! :twisted:


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PostPosted: Fri Aug 31, 2007 8:36 am 
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Joined: Thu Apr 19, 2007 10:34 am
Posts: 33
Location: Miami
If you put a ten meter windsurfing sail onto an AI, pulled the drive and plugged it, I am sure it would win against the boats every time and in all conditions.

So what?

Instead of using a giant sail, I am supplementing sail power with the hybrid drive of the Mirage. It is an interesting way to race and non-traditional. If I wanted to sail a multihull against keelboats, I could hop on a Hobie 16 or a Tiger and race them but we already had a really boring Americas Cup like that....we already know the outcome.

What is fun for me is I have very tight racing with the AI against these boats right now even though the designs are very different. I am interested in having fun and getting some exercise, not the Portsmouth Rating.

Everyone seems to think it's not sailing but the reality is that it is fully sailing, but with an assist from the hybrid power. You tack, you gybe, you hit laylines, you start, you do mark roundings, you pinch, you foot, you luff, you have overlaps and port/starboard situations....instead of a giant sail, you have hybrid power assist, just like a Prius. Hey, I heard they are going to have some kind of hybrid stuff going on in Formula 1 pretty soon!


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PostPosted: Tue Sep 04, 2007 7:11 am 
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Joined: Wed Feb 22, 2006 9:00 pm
Posts: 68
In a world of expanding possibilities, why place strict limits on racing? The competition of racing is a healthy stimulant for new technology.
Is this motorcycle, not a motorcycle because it does the quarter mile in 8.2 seconds at 155mph on battery power?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GDHJNG2P ... ed&search=

I remember when many wanted Australia II to be disqualified due to the winged keel design.


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 Post subject: Rating an A/I ?
PostPosted: Tue Sep 04, 2007 4:48 pm 
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Site Rank - Deck Hand

Joined: Wed Jul 18, 2007 6:41 pm
Posts: 7
Location: Sarasota, Fl
How would one go about getting a "recognized" rating for an AI. I've never done any type of sailboat racing, but isn't there some type of rating system used so different types/sizes/displacements etc of sailboats can race each other on a more or less level playing field (or should I say level water). What's it called ... Portsmouth Rating/PHRF ?If I wanted to roll up to the Wednesday evening beer can races on Sarasota Bay in a Hobie 16/18 I think I could race against the other J-Boats/Hunters/Catalinas without any problems & have the results settled up at the Club bar with different ratings given to different boats to even out the speed difference between boats. So, I guess my question would be, could our manufacturer provide us with a rating (with & without fins) that we could take to the race community or do we all just want to be outlaws. :lol:


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Tue Sep 04, 2007 5:53 pm 
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Joined: Thu Jul 27, 2006 5:26 pm
Posts: 598
Location: Norman, OK
The problem that you run into with trying to give the mirage drive a rating would be that the power people can exert with it will vary from person to person. Also the mirage drive has the ability to go straight upwind, so if suddenly you need to go upwind just 20 yards or so rather than tack back and forth you can just turn up and peddle with out sailpower.

I would love to see a rating for the AI, and would love to race against one but as I have said before the drive couldn't be used if you wanted to claim you beat me in a some kind of club race.

Now, if someone with an AI wanted to race me just between him and I or a few others. I would be up for the challenge even if he was using the drive. But I think if the race is a sailboat race then no drive, I can't use a paddle, you can't use a drive that is just how it works.

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Nacra 5.2 "Elsies"
Hobie 14T, "Blazin" I guess I am keeping her!


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Tue Sep 04, 2007 6:24 pm 
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Joined: Fri Mar 23, 2007 8:12 am
Posts: 420
Location: Florida
[Enter Charlton Heston mode]
"You can have my mirage drive only after you pry it from my cold, dead hands." [/exit Charlton Heston mode]
:twisted: :lol:


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 Post subject: One Flipper
PostPosted: Wed Sep 19, 2007 7:48 am 
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Joined: Thu Apr 19, 2007 10:34 am
Posts: 33
Location: Miami
One of my Turbo flippers came off the mast the other night, so I removed it and raced with one flipper. Light wind (1-4), very easy pedaling, it was dramatically faster than the lasers we raced against. Less power than two of course, but I would say it was not half as much....maybe 55-60% of the power of two. That kind of breeze is very favorable to the AI.

Lasers definitely did not know what to make of it.

If all goes well tonight, I will sail it with a 9.0 windsurfing rig standing up with some occasional foot steering with the rudder. Rig will be unstayed, normal windsurfing style. For those of you who might remember the Yamaha Waterspyder, this was almost identical to what I am referring to but with a fixed skeg instead of the rudder. It was fast in light wind...composite tri, 14 feet, about 50 lbs., Waterrat centerboard. Like standing on a log when you took the amas off, which we tried to do with limited success. Unlike the AI, it was not a commercial success as it was designed to be windsurfed. Not so good when you crashed hard on it....


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Wed Sep 19, 2007 8:46 am 
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Joined: Thu Jul 27, 2006 5:26 pm
Posts: 598
Location: Norman, OK
I am confused are you adding more sail to the AI or a different tri?

This should be interesting to hear about....


Also, of course you beat the lasers in that light of wind, you have a source of power! I still say try it with out pedeling!

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Hobie 14T, "Blazin" I guess I am keeping her!


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Wed Sep 19, 2007 9:54 am 
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Joined: Fri Jun 22, 2007 9:49 am
Posts: 42
Location: Dahlgren, VA
The real competition for most of us is in one-design racing where the skill of the sailor primarily determines the outcome. How many AI's has Hobie sold so far? :?: How long till there are enough to promote a racing class?

I haven't seen another AI on the middle or lower Potomac River in the four months since purchasing it (the AI, not the river). :wink:

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baysailor


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Thu Sep 20, 2007 7:31 pm 
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Joined: Sat Jul 14, 2007 11:46 am
Posts: 76
Location: sacramento
Jim

How did you add the additional meters. Is the mast strong enough to hold your balance on??


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