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 Post subject: Thinking about the 20
PostPosted: Sat Dec 15, 2007 6:27 pm 
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Joined: Mon Oct 09, 2006 2:34 pm
Posts: 527
Location: NC
Until recently I hadn't really considered the 20 as a "new" to me boat in the distant future (damn college loans). I had really been thinking about an 18 as it would probably handle my weight better than my 16. I had always thought I wanted a brand new 16 but the more I think about it I think I may just continuously upgrade her (new hulls, sails, rudders, etc.) But the 20 has really caught my interest as something to put on my to do list. Just a few questions?

How does it stand up to beaching??? (given that it is done with care) The crowd I sail with here in NC are a bunch of die-hard beach sailors. Can it be single handed? (again, these die-hard beach sailors all single-hand, I'd hate to have to look for crew all of the time) How is the racing scene down in the south-east? Can it be raced single-handed. How does it handle big wind? (20 kts. or more?)

Right now I'm around 250 lbs. I've heard that it is a pretty weight tolerant boat. What do you 20 sailors have to say about her?

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86' Redline Hobie 16
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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sat Dec 15, 2007 7:01 pm 
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Joined: Thu Oct 25, 2007 7:04 am
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Location: Clinton Lake Kansas
James,

Can't answer all your questions but I'll try a few.

You weighing 250, I think you'd love the upgrade to the 20...if you have regular crew. It really is an overpowered racing machine that I'd not think twice about leaving on the beach when the wind is over 20 knots, we race at 310 pounds. We're flying a hull in under 10 knots wind, she's very, very fast.

Don't think they'll stand the beachings like an 18 will. I enjoyed the heck out of our 18 and felt more comfortable single handing it over the 16 (and I'm not a big guy). Tony Probst (CA) races in the 20 Nationals single handed, but doesn't carry weight to make minimum. Note he also raced the 18 singlehanded prior to the 20.

The biggest speed difference between the 18 and 20 is downwind, upwind the least difference.

The 20 weighs 420, the 18 weighs 400. With either boat you should consider righting assistance.

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sat Dec 15, 2007 8:14 pm 
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Location: NC
Thanks for the quick reply. Wow! Flying a hull in under 10 knots. It takes a little more than that to lift me up on the 16. I don't see myself ever being without a 16 so maybe when the wind picks up over the comfortable limit of the 20 that's when I'd turn back to the 16. The wind can be pretty good on the coast here, and the 20 knots thing was the upper range of what I would consider taking the 16 out in. Over 25 it too definately stays on the beach.

Do you run a kite on yours? Is that where the difference between the 18 and 20 comes in? I have very limited experience with the 18 (more or less none) and no experience with the 20. And these questions are more or less for which cat poster I'll put on my door to inspire me when I leave the house every day, if you know what I mean.

But, I really like the design. It's a shame it was discontinued. And I do think that it is a logical choice for me, but relying on crew is kind of a draw back. At least if I were to single hand it I'd likely have some other guys around that could assist. I can right the 16 solo in the right conditions but I imagine the 20 is a whole different story.

For what ever reason, after reading about you and Paul in the last Hotline and seeing that awesome pic of the 20 flying a hull in Karl's article it sparked a whole new interest in this boat. And going as fast as possible isn't a real drawback if you know what I mean :D . Hopefully, before too long, maybe I can catch a ride on one. Although I'm somewhat afraid that will make my mind up for me. But, it's still a ways down the road.

Thanks again. And keep the comments coming.

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86' Redline Hobie 16
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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sat Dec 15, 2007 8:17 pm 
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Location: Northfield Minnesota
Oddly enough, I've never been on a H20. Blasphemy I know. I'm sure I'll be good and sick of the boat, (and crewing), when nationals are over next year. You know exactly what boat I'd like to see you on. :wink:


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sat Dec 15, 2007 8:49 pm 
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Location: NC
Karl, I was waiting for it. And I love the way that boat looks and sails after watching your nice vid a while back. But the lack of used fx/ones just makes them a little more pricey. A 6-7K 20 is a little different than, well actually, I'm not sure what the Fx runs right now, but I know it's considerably more. And keep in mind I'll be on a NC teacher's salary, if things go as planned. How does the fx-one tolerate my kind of weight? I've read that the 17 is extremely sensitive to weight and I know they are different boats but how do they compare? I absolutely love the fact that it was designed as a single hander, which I prefer. Keep working at it though, I can be pretty impressionable when it comes to cats. I'd love to hear all the details that you have about it, I really do hope it takes of here in the US as one of the new single-handers. If I had my way I'd have a 16,18, fx-one, 20, tiger,.... well you get the idea. One for every day of the week. But I figure I have a while to decide and when I do I want to be as informed as possible. By the way, my girl is looking over my shoulder now and reminding me how obsessed I've become with this sport.
(she gives me crap because everytime I come down to spend time with her while she's been at UNCW I always bring my boat, and the time we spend together depends on the wind forecast :roll: ) (at least she's the understanding type :D )

And Karl, you did a great job with that article in the last HOTLINE. It really makes me want to talk all the guys here in NC to getting the fleet (or making a new one) way more active. There is good water and wind here. They are here, it just doesn't seem that they are one. Or maybe I'm just not in the know.

Anyway, now I'm stealing my own thread. Any more thoughts about the 20?

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86' Redline Hobie 16
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 Post subject: boats
PostPosted: Sat Dec 15, 2007 8:51 pm 
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Joined: Wed Nov 01, 2006 4:44 pm
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Location: Raleigh, NC
The H20 scene is dead in the SE. The only 20 footer being raced is the N20. For the abuse you will put on it, I'd go with the 18-plus there are several still racing in the area, with and without chutes.
Come for a ride on my 20, and you'll see why people switched over...

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1998 H16 102698
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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sat Dec 15, 2007 9:56 pm 
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Joined: Thu Oct 25, 2007 7:04 am
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Location: Clinton Lake Kansas
Trey has the answer I couldn't give you...who's racing what boat. The big fleets here are H20, and H16 to the North. We rarely sail the 20 for pleasure, and honestly probably wouldn't own one. If H18 was the racing fleet, I'd be very happy. We sail the 16 for fun. IMO, with an 18 you'd have both bases covered and could race solo to boot.

If $6-$7K is in your range I'd be thinking about the F18's as well.

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sun Dec 16, 2007 12:57 pm 
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Location: NC
Thanks John and Trey. Not much is in my range right now, hopefully before too long though. I just figured that since it was winter ya'll would help me entertain the thought of the 20 as a possible future boat for myself. Like I said, more or less a goal. Ya'll know how these boats are, they invade your brain to where you have to try really hard not to think about anything else. What's up with that :? ? I would like to upgrade to another (bigger) boat someday and I like to really think about things and be well informed. If no one is racing the 20 down here it might not be the best investment, even though they seem like a spectacular boat.

Like I said, I always want to have a 16, they are just so much fun, and such a classic design. I've only been to one regatta (thanks to Trey), but these guys in the area will definately be seeing more of me in the future, even if they have to look back to do so :lol: . So, choosing a boat that is active will influence my desicion ultimately. The 18 may be the better overall choice in the Hobie realm. And they can be found pretty cheaply as well which is a definate plus.

Trey, I would jump at the chance to get a ride on the N20. Just say when and where, I'm there.

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86' Redline Hobie 16
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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sun Dec 16, 2007 6:35 pm 
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Joined: Sat Feb 24, 2007 8:45 pm
Posts: 1667
Location: Northfield Minnesota
I paid just over ten for my boat. Right now there just isn't enough used ones out there so they're holding thier value pretty well. I'll be selling mine next summer, but I will be selling it to someone local so I have someone to race with.

I've never skippered a H18 so all of my complaints are as crew. I hate the way the jib cleats from the tramp. I have difficulty getting it uncleated almost everytime. I guess that's my only real complaint. They handle a spinnaker well. One of the guys in my fleet has a gigantic spin, like way too big for the boat, but it still does pretty well. He ends up running really deep.

I'd say sail the 16 for a another year or two. You can single hand it easy enough at your weight.


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Mon Dec 17, 2007 12:41 am 
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Joined: Mon Feb 13, 2006 8:37 pm
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Location: Columbus Ohio
Abbman,

I have yet to sail my H20, but I've been on a P19 alot this fall, which I've been told is way similiar and my conclusions are as follows: It has taught me the meaning of respect. I am used to taking my 16 out solo in almost anything. On the P19, not the 20, we were double trapped flying a hull in 12 knots. It points like crazy, but what doesn't compared to a 16. I'm not sure how much I will single hand the H20, just because I weigh 220 and it's not enough weight, let alone to help right her. I like sailing hard and fast and I think I've met my match. I would think soloing a H20 in 15plus knots would be like riding a bull. (fun, but not all day) The H20 is not going to handle the regular beach thrashings the Wrightville boys throw down, but I'm going to find out. I think the 18 would be your next step as a solo artist, more flotation, better tacking and pointing than the 16. Tough as nails. Where has Hobie Nick been, by the way? He's an 18 solo guy.

I got the H20 only as a budget, year or two, stepping stone to the N20. I got a sick deal on the H20, of course I haven't seen it float yet. :lol: In two years I hope used N20's will be in the 5k range or even better.. I want to try some distance stuff this year and The Statue of Liberty is on the list, which I'll do with the H20. John, I think South Dakota is too far, as much as I'd love to come. Abbman, I plan on getting down to Wrightsville in the spring to rip it up with Thomas and the boys on a Friday afternoon and a long weekend till my hands bleed, I'll let you know. :D


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Mon Dec 17, 2007 7:23 am 
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Location: NC
Thanks everyone. The 18 is sounding like the best choice for me for a number of reasons. (Active racing, beach abuse, hull volume, better pointing, very affordable -a good all around upgrade)

Karl, I've only been on the 18 once, as crew in heavy wind. I agree about the jib cleats, for a crew they are in the way. And, like you said, I had a hard time uncleating them as well. I'm sure there is a way to upgrade the cleat. But, the one thing I loved about it was it's ability to tack. Those boards make a HUGE difference in turning across the wind. But, most of the time I will likely be soloing the boat, especially with the crew in Wrightsville Beach.

Buzzman, that sounds great. Yeah, I was just down there this weekend. Planned on sailing Thurs and Friday. Believe it or not Thursday was too windy, even for those dudes (25+). Genmar Star and I went out Fri in light wind for a quick run and as soon as we got back into the channel the wind was dead, and I mean dead. We had to come in on current alone. Lately, from what I've seen and gathered, it's either been blowing like crazy or barely enought to move you. (But we've had some wierd weather lately as well) Luckily for him he's found a new spot to keep his boat closer to the inlet, I had to drift all the way back to the Blockade Runner, inevetibally getting the tow of shame the last few hundred yards. At least it was from another sailboat. But, I look foward to meeting you in the spring and getting a ride on that beast.

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86' Redline Hobie 16
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 Post subject: boats
PostPosted: Mon Dec 17, 2007 7:59 am 
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Joined: Wed Nov 01, 2006 4:44 pm
Posts: 165
Location: Raleigh, NC
I wouldn't hold my breath on finding a N20 for $5000 or less. You might get lucky and find one for $6500 w/ a trailer, but it'll be a long while before they drop the price more than that. A new N20 mast costs ~$5,000, so at less than that, the parts become worth more than the boat.

The H20 is a great stepping stone for the N20. They perform relatively similar upwind. I would say neither are candidates for singlehanding, save for light wind days (less than 8 knots). I've raced my N20 singlehanded once before, so it can be done. It was light wind (<6 knots).

The 18 is your best bet abbman.

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www.velocitysailing.com
2006 N20 1017
1998 H16 102698
www.sunjammers.com ftw!


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Mon Dec 17, 2007 3:47 pm 
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Location: Jersey Shore
>>Karl, I've only been on the 18 once, as crew in heavy wind. I agree about the jib cleats, for a crew they are in the way. And, like you said, I had a hard time uncleating them as well. I'm sure there is a way to upgrade the cleat.



If you disliked the jib cleats on the 18, then you're really not going to like the cleats on the 20. The jib blocks mount on a wire that stretches across the tramp. Most crews really hate that set up as the wire always gets in the way. Some of the boats had a pocket on the tramp that covers the wire, but not all (mine didn't). Also you have barber haulers to contend with on the 20.

Both the 18 and 20 use the same style jib block (unless you switch to the Oxen blocks). If you use harken blocks and adjust the cam height, after about 15 or so years, you'll be good at snapping the sheet out of the cleat :).

The 18 and 20 are both great boats, I've sailed and owned both. I will say that the 18 is considerably easier to sail, especially when it's windy. You can roll up the jib, travel out a little, and the boat really settles down. The 20 is pretty much always "amped up". For single handing, the 18 is probably the better choice.

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sun Dec 23, 2007 10:54 am 
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Posts: 16
Location: Chattanooga
We had a H20, rigged it with a spin and had a blast. It is a great boat. Only thing is we weighed 265 TOGETHER. We could not right the boat and it was just too much boat for us. The other guys are right about the rigging. It is a bear of a boat for the crew...esp with the spin....but nothing that can't be learned. And we covered the jib wire with a plastic tube which worked well. I can't imagine sailing that boat alone in any wind.The hulls are tender so you should use tracks all the time. I have never been on the H18 only the Tiger and F18's. Just because there are none sailing right now doesn't mean you can't start with one. There are a few H18's and more H16's in the area. You could also do what I do--be "professional crew" and see what you like.

We sold the 20 in spring and got a Blade F16. By the way we still have the spin system for sale if anyone is interested.


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sun Dec 23, 2007 7:38 pm 
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Location: NC
Thanks crew-20 for your input. As much as I think the 20 is a really great boat, I think I have become sold on the 18 for a few reasons. I like to sail single-hand most of the time. Don't get me wrong, I love to take people out sailing with me and love the fact that I could sail the 18 solo or 2-up, but being dependant on crew is not something I'm really in to. I more-or-less live in a water deprived area and have to travel to sail (45 min or more). I like the fact that with my current 16, or my future 18 (fingers crossed), I can pack up and go at a moments notice to catch the good wind. In addition, I'm probably not that gentle on my boat. The crowd I have been sailing with are beach sailors, and I think I'm making the transition as well, and we beach the boats often during a sailing session. Having to carefully pull up to shore and use cat tracks all the time doesn't really appeal to me, also because of the solo thing. Some of the water I'm on I really can't rely on help of any kind, set-up or other-wise. Then, I weigh close to your combined crew weight and I know that the 18 will handle it well in a variety of wind conditions.

But, that doesn't mean I won't jump at the chance to crew on a 20 and see what it is all about. I'd love to fly a hull in under 10 knots, that still blows my mind.

This post has been very informative to me and confirmed that the 18 is the best boat for me to upgrade to. If I get more serious into racing than I may consider a more modern cat, but for my use the 18 will take the punishment that I will likely put her through and provide the extra challenge that I think I'm ready for. Thanks everyone.

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86' Redline Hobie 16
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