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 Post subject: Snapped a Rudder Pin!!!
PostPosted: Fri Dec 28, 2007 7:35 pm 
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Joined: Fri Nov 23, 2007 5:01 pm
Posts: 34
Location: Redmond, Wa.
I was out for a great sail today 20-30mph winds on Lake Washington Sailed across the lake. Dinked around by the Evergreen Point floating bridge. On the way back was following a T-bird heeled over 45 degrees and was holding my own.

About a half mile form our launch point the rudder pin snapped. we were on a broad reach moving at a good clip with a following sea. When it happened I thought my buddy rammed with my other AI looked around and he was 75 yards a stern. Realized what happened pretty quick, climbed back to take look and confirm my suspicions. Tip, always furl the sail when doing this while I was looking at the rudder the yak came around and was all of sudden moving at a good clip trying not to let the main sheet push me in the water. Managed to wrestle my way back to the cock pit. furled the sail to about 3/4 grabbed half a paddle from the front hatch and was able to sail in using the paddle as a rudder. Worked surprisingly well. I felt a little redeemed as I got to macgyver my way in, making up for almost getting myself a forced december swim.

Anyway, I read somewhere that sombody had come up with a stainless steel replacement. Anyone point me in the right direction?


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 Post subject: weak point
PostPosted: Sat Dec 29, 2007 12:52 am 
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Joined: Tue Jul 17, 2007 2:55 am
Posts: 96
Location: North Shore Oahu Hawaii
fun stuff. this has happend many times to me. nothing like trying to use a paddle for a rudder in 20mph winds and 4-6 foot seas while three miles out. any other replacment pin will void warrenty. stainless pins will corrode brass sleave at insert point.. have hobie extras every time you go out. order from hobie in bulk. read my article on hobie ai saftey. be prepaired for this to happen a lot and to get in the water to deal with it. I have forgotton to furl sail, jumped into water to check pin and had a big gust give me a nice finger tip ride while i was holding on to rudder and lock down screw. :roll: be safe. be prepaired. aloha Boogie-D

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sat Dec 29, 2007 5:35 am 
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Joined: Thu Apr 26, 2007 9:57 am
Posts: 222
Location: Phuket, Thailand
I dropped a stainless pin in and all my worries went away now i am converting my lines I am replacing the pin with one I had turned out of superlene because i am worried about electrolitic action. the stock pins were pretty useless they always popped...but boogie is correct steel is probably not the way to go. problem with turning plastic on a lathe is that it tends to drift but it is possible to machine a rod down to the correct diameter trouble is you cant apply too much pressure so your forever sharpening the blades. VIVA SE Asia for its machine shops on every corner!!!!


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Thu Jan 03, 2008 8:24 am 
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Location: Phuket, Thailand
Heres the result of running a split pin thru the bottom of your rudder pin so it doesnt pop out Image


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Thu Jan 03, 2008 8:55 am 
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Joined: Fri Nov 23, 2007 5:01 pm
Posts: 34
Location: Redmond, Wa.
Philip1el wrote:
Heres the result of running a split pin thru the bottom of your rudder pin so it doesnt pop out[/img]http://i224.photobucket.com/albums/dd140/philip1el/rudder.jpg[img]


The photo bucket link did not auto load... :( I think it was the syntax. I was able to go directly to the link and see the photo. :)

Was that a result of a impact or just stress over time? I had this discussion with my local dealer about whether or not that was a necessary shear pin. To be honest, I figured it was not!!! hummm maybe I should rethink this.

NorskBoy


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Thu Jan 03, 2008 10:08 am 
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Joined: Wed May 28, 2003 1:12 pm
Posts: 1012
I fixed your link - it's showing now....


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Fri Jan 04, 2008 9:30 am 
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Location: Phuket, Thailand
Was that a result of a impact or just stress over time?

Hi Norskboy

Well I didnt hit anything I'm aware of actually I was on a reach at the time so there wouldnt have been much load on the rudder anyway.

I was out doing a first time trial run with the new up/downhaul rudder system. It was windy so a good test. I was sailing back and forth in a mile wide channel between the mainland and an Island called Ko Bon. Narrow Channels can get lumpy specially on an ebbing tide and the sea was ramping up nicely. Wind felt like like it was howling so say anything between 15-18!!!! I was reefed to the tip of the top batten. rudder held down well, close hauled...I was amazed. With the length of line running from a leverage point way up high on the rudder housing all the way to the bow of the boat and then back to the cockpit I was sure the rudder would pull free of its retaining clasp and twist out on me on the port tack. It didnt, the clasp area gave out instead. I'm sure if i had the stock pin in it would have pulled out first...Trouble is my stock pins always pulled out thats why I made one out of superlene (sort of nylon) with a split pin thru the bottom.

Anyway, it was a lot of fun. I think a lot about rudders..what if the entire rudder was one unit same shape below the waterline but coming up over the stern with a pin running thru no twist and stow just steering lines. When your coming in you yank out the pin a chuck the whole lot into the back of the boat?!! the present system seems to be a very complicated/falable piece of engineering.

Also a lot of talk about 6' seas and 20 knot winds....even one guy talking 30 ("all sorts of fun", when are we going to hit 40?) , sounds very tough and manly but in all fairness to Hobiecat was this what the AI was originaly designed for or is this why stuffs getting busted up?

Thank You jbernier for sorting out my photo...I will get it right....one of these days!

So, back to trolling with just the mirage drive and paddles, no fish of course but a hell of a workout!


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Fri Jan 04, 2008 10:23 am 
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Joined: Fri Nov 23, 2007 5:01 pm
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Location: Redmond, Wa.
Philip1el,

I have had my hobie out in wind speeds up to 30 knots. It is a whole lot of fun and requires you to be on your toes.

Of course I realize that I am pushing the AI to the limits if its capabilities, but on a macro level, it certainly seems to handle it well.

On the rudder pin I snapped mine on my second sail with the new updown lines installed. I was on a Starboard tack in 20 - 25knot winds with the sail reefed to about 6" from the first batten. Do you suppose that there is any way that the new updown lines allow us to put to much pressure on the Rudder? I am at my office, so I can't go look right now.

I would definitely not be interested in a rudder I had to dismount from the Yak at the end of each outing. However, The idea of going back to a traditional rudder design would not break my heart. I appreciate the artful design of the twist and stow, but if the realities of the increased performance of the AI are making it impractical, tried and true may be the answer.

NorskBoy


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Fri Jan 04, 2008 9:05 pm 
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Location: Phuket, Thailand
Hi Norskboy!

I have been having some issues with my rudder. I think this is because its designed to flip up and out from one side...fine if you going at paddling/pedalling speeds, problematic under sail at higher speed with the loading on the rudder on a port tack bearing against the clasp. (the bit I bust) With the old up/downhaul system and sailing close hauled the little locking pin would pop, the rudder come away from the clasp and you would loose steerage way until you had peddled the boat round to a close reach. The only way round this was to sail real close on the starboard tack but off the wind on the port so instead of tacking upwind in a series of 'V's' I did so in a series of 'N's'...so to speak.

Now the rudder appears to be locking down OK using the new
up/downhaul system the stresses are being transferred to the next weakest point, in your case the rudderpin in mine (because my pins held in place with a split pin) the weakest point of the rudder assembly.

I agree with you about a fixed rudder that couldnt flip up, it would be a real pain, but for me at the moment the one remaining problem is my rudder, all the other glitches i had have been solved by the guys on this forum.

I dont envisage this rudder design staying in production, my guess is that Hobie are already working on something more appropriate and that in the not to distant future the AI will come with a whole new rudder assembly.

If its a retractable rudder the leverage has to be reduced maybe a rudder that slid up and down on a mast at the stern, maybe a locking cam like the old Hobies? I had a 16 and an 18 years ago and they were great...not enough tension on the rudder cam?....just increase it with a turn on the
screw.....other people hated it but it worked well for me.

My next step when the new rudder housing arrives will be to fabricate a clamp that will hold the clasp tight against the housing on the other side of the rudder then we will see where the next weakest point is!

One other thing that MAY contribute to the problem....Is your rudder blade a bit warped?

Anyway its fun just using my AI as an adventure, no sail, no outriggers....now i have no rudder control I have to paddle as well as peddle which is very good exercise!


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sat Jan 05, 2008 7:39 pm 
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Location: Virginia Beach, Va.
It probably is that the new lock down system has just chased it to the next weakest point. I tried bolting mine clear through the rudder and sheared 3 pin in about an hour. I finally went with a small stainless screw up into the bottom of the pin. A few outings later my rudder assembly broke while I was out in some very heavy waves.
gwiz


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sat Jan 05, 2008 8:32 pm 
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Location: Phuket, Thailand
gwiz wrote:
It probably is that the new lock down system has just chased it to the next weakest point.
Quote:

That is my big worry.


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 Post subject: rudder
PostPosted: Sat Jan 05, 2008 8:53 pm 
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Joined: Sat Sep 08, 2007 6:26 pm
Posts: 13
Location: Long Island,NY
gwiz wrote:
It probably is that the new lock down system has just chased it to the next weakest point. I tried bolting mine clear through the rudder and sheared 3 pin in about an hour. I finally went with a small stainless screw up into the bottom of the pin. A few outings later my rudder assembly broke while I was out in some very heavy waves.
gwiz


I just did the upgrade today. Would you recommend not cleating the rudder "down line" all the way so that there will be some flex-with the down line absorbing the shock. It might be better to lose sailing efficiency rather then break the rudder assembly.
Howie

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sat Jan 05, 2008 9:32 pm 
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Joined: Fri Jan 05, 2007 9:21 pm
Posts: 2237
Location: Maui, Hawaii
If you don't cleat it tight, you will not have good rudder control at sailing speed.

Kayaking Bob


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sat Jan 05, 2008 10:44 pm 
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Joined: Wed Dec 07, 2005 11:04 pm
Posts: 617
Location: Hawaii, Big Island
I think a lot about rudders..what if the entire rudder was one unit same shape below the waterline but coming up over the stern with a pin running thru no twist and stow just steering lines. When your coming in you yank out the pin a chuck the whole lot into the back of the boat?!! the present system seems to be a very complicated/falable piece of engineering.



Philip. I couldn't agree more.

Checkout this headstock:

http://www.philsfoils.com/Designs/kayak.html

Just pull the pin. I've also seen where the steering lines connect to a headstock with carbiners. for disconnecting them quickly (That's Go Bananas on Oahu who really deserve a Hobie franchise.


Also take a look at smart Track system.

http://smart-tracker.com/introduction.htm

The spring in the blade permits immediate removal.

Another nice thing about the Smart Track is the trim tab. I've complained here before about having to hold onto the rudder steering handle. This has improved somewhat with the balanced rudder but still needs some sort of system to lock the rudder into whatever angle you need to do true two hands on fishing while handling the yak in high winds, etc.

I'll trade the 30 second removal and install for the Twist & Stow anyday.

I'm sure Hobie will come up with something. Hopefully a retro fit.

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sun Jan 06, 2008 12:59 pm 
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Joined: Fri Nov 23, 2007 5:01 pm
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Location: Redmond, Wa.
reconlon wrote:
If you don't cleat it tight, you will not have good rudder control at sailing speed.

Kayaking Bob


How much tension is too much?

I know when I snapped my rudder pin, last week, on my second sail with the new Up/Down system I was in a pretty good wind and had really reefed it down, perhaps too much. I still think this may come back to the fact what with the twist and stow rudder system Hobie solved a problem that wasn't a problem. This is not an issue on a typical Adventure but as soon as you add outriggers, a sail and the oversized rudder. It appears that the performance may exceed the design loads of the twist and stow. Seems like a simple solution would be to go back to standard flip up rudder. It won't be as elegant, but it should have a much lower failure rate.

Snapping a rudder pin or worse destroying the whole system as in the photo above are both inconvenient and dangerous in the right/wrong conditions.

NorskBoy


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