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PostPosted: Tue Jan 06, 2009 4:12 am 
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Joined: Fri Dec 26, 2008 9:38 pm
Posts: 10
Location: Buderim, Sunshine Coast, QLD, Australia
Hi all I just joined this forum but have studied it for a while. I have found lots of really helpful info here.

I just purchased my new Revo with sail kit.

I have sailed it in the river, then out across the bar in the ocean in 10 to 15 knots of wind. I must say I`m impressed it sails so well. I feel very confident with it.

I did however capsize returning through the bar. It was about 2 hrs from low tide, so the current was against me and the waves were jacking up, I had a larger wave come from behind, causing me to nose dive. I still was under sail, which was a mistake as I bent the mast. I have managed to pretty well straighten it out, I just hope it`s not weaker now. I found the rope hard to hold on to for extended periods in that strength of wind so I now have a V cleat that takes care of that.

Have you ever bent a mast? If so were you able to straighten it? If so how?

I used a pipe bender for the tighter radius, which caused a couple of very small dents, and for the larger arc I stuck the end of the mast in a hole in the end of my towbar and swung of it till I pulled the bend out.

Since then I went out in the river in winds that varied from 15 to 25 knots.
I capsized about 3 times from sudden strong gusts. At the time the gust hit, tipping the boat over, the thing that happened that partly caused the capsize was the seat plugs released from their holes causing my bum and body weight to slide to the opposite side of the boat. It was at that instant that on all occasions the boat capsized. So I`m wondering if you have experienced the same?, and if so what did you do to stop it from continuing to happen?

I have contacted a sheet of non slip rubber matting to the underside of the seat, worked like a charm.

I have since been out sailing in winds gusting up to 20 knots from 10 knots, with out capsizing, however the mast did suffer a slight bend.

I am wondering what to do with the mast? Should I add another aluminum sleeve inside to stiffen it? Or just not sail in stronger wind that maybe 15 knots? I am concerned that if the mast is stronger will the mast receptacle or hull suffer?

I look fwd to your comments.
Cheers,
Speedy.


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PostPosted: Tue Jan 06, 2009 7:02 am 
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Joined: Sun Jun 10, 2007 3:36 pm
Posts: 171
Location: Rockford, Illinois
I also have Revo with sail. However, I installed the SideKicks and that stopped the capsizing.
I did bend my mast once but straightened it using the techniques you described. There are other posts here that suggest ways to re-enforce the mast, such as putting fiberglass rods or bamboo inside it. Another one added lines from the top.
Do a search of past posts using "revo sail" in the "kayak sailing" area. You should find interesting posts.

Bruce

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PostPosted: Tue Jan 06, 2009 2:59 pm 
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Joined: Thu Aug 16, 2007 2:25 pm
Posts: 1951
Location: Central Coast NSW Australia
G'Day and welcome speedy!
Sorry to hear you bent your mast. Sounds like you were able to straighten it OK. 8)
As Bruce said others have strengthened their mast internally, but I feel that the best defence against damage is to lessen the sail area when the winds get strong. You are right to be concerned about hull/mast tube damage. The standard sail and mast are OK for wind speeds up to about 10 knots. In stronger winds I furl the sail accordingly using the system I previously posted about. I have never bent a mast and I have sailed in 25+ knot windspeeds. You don't need much sail out in those conditions! :wink:
I have broken a mast but that was my fault by drilling too large a hole in the mast for my original furling line system. :oops:


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PostPosted: Tue Jan 06, 2009 4:12 pm 
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Joined: Fri Dec 26, 2008 9:38 pm
Posts: 10
Location: Buderim, Sunshine Coast, QLD, Australia
BNelsonR wrote:
I also have Revo with sail. However, I installed the SideKicks and that stopped the capsizing.
I did bend my mast once but straightened it using the techniques you described. There are other posts here that suggest ways to re-enforce the mast, such as putting fiberglass rods or bamboo inside it. Another one added lines from the top.
Do a search of past posts using "revo sail" in the "kayak sailing" area. You should find interesting posts.

Bruce
If I had the side kicks, wouldnt that mean that there would be even more chance of the mast bending in strong wind? Being that there is less give?

I did think about those thigh straps to give me more leverage when the wind is trying to blow it over, but same thing, it will also put additional strain on the mast.

I have found since I added the non slip rubber under the seat I can keep the boat from capsizing in up to 20 knots, but even then bending the mast.

Maybe a length of hollow fibreglass tube up the guts could be just enough to give it a little extra strength with out making it too stiff?


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PostPosted: Tue Jan 06, 2009 4:30 pm 
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Location: Buderim, Sunshine Coast, QLD, Australia
stringy wrote:
G'Day and welcome speedy!
Sorry to hear you bent your mast. Sounds like you were able to straighten it OK. 8)
As Bruce said others have strengthened their mast internally, but I feel that the best defence against damage is to lessen the sail area when the winds get strong. You are right to be concerned about hull/mast tube damage. The standard sail and mast are OK for wind speeds up to about 10 knots. In stronger winds I furl the sail accordingly using the system I previously posted about. I have never bent a mast and I have sailed in 25+ knot windspeeds. You don't need much sail out in those conditions! :wink:
I have broken a mast but that was my fault by drilling too large a hole in the mast for my original furling line system. :oops:


HI Stringy,
I have read your roller furling thread and found it very good. I was planning to do it, however I thought I would just try sailing and sail trolling without it and see how I get on. I can drop the sail pretty quickly as well as put it back up. I think the only reason I will perhaps need it is if I end up doing alot of sail trolling and actually catching a lot of larger fish, when every second counts.

I can easily furl a bit of sail as you described for stronger wind, simply by wrapping 1 or 2 turns of sail around the mast plus 1 further turn of the bungee, then hooking the bungee back up. But in my brief trial I found the sail was a poor shape. I thought maybe just restrict sail use to 15 knots max.

I feel to expect much more is perhaps expecting too much from a kayak with a sail? It sails really well up to a point, and I think that is all it was ever really designed for.

Having said that, if I can get just a little more out of it without doing any damage, I probably will. My main obstacle is the bending mast. I dont want to strengthen the mast though if doing so transfers the extra load to the mast receptacle causing a breakage there.

What are your thoughts?

Cheers,
Ken.


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PostPosted: Wed Jan 07, 2009 1:21 pm 
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Joined: Fri Jun 06, 2008 1:53 pm
Posts: 384
Location: S.E. Florida
Hi speedy,

Sounds like you are putting your revo to the test. I have neither bent my mast nor capsized. I almost capsized a few times in 15MPH gusts and decided on the sidekicks. Since getting the sidekicks I have braved higher winds but still keep within reason for I do not want to damage the mast tube.
I have heard of it happening so I just stay within the 15 to 20 mph range. I have not yet utilized stringy's sail furling but I do plan to one day. KUDOS to Stringy .. it is quite ingenious.

I have attached a small carabiner clip to the end of the main sheet line that clips to the eyelet of the sail so that if trolling or sailing and I just need to quickly dump the sail quickly or furl it I just unclip the sail eyelet from the main sheet and then clip the main sheet line to the cleat for safe keeping. The sail then flaps in the wind as I reel in fish or if furling I skoot forward and wrap the sail around the mast while facing into the wind. I have a short furling line & clip always attached to the eyelet to tie off the sail which does not interfere with the carabiner clip. The carabiner clip is light weight and does not konk you in the head if the sail flutters at your head.

This has worked well for me so far and I can keep the mast up and the sail furled till needed and then quickly unfurl it and clip to main sheet when setting sail. The clip end of the main sheet is always clipped to the cleat readily in reach when sail not in use.

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PostPosted: Fri Jan 09, 2009 12:02 am 
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Joined: Sat Nov 12, 2005 10:46 pm
Posts: 2389
Location: Escondido
Speedy, congratulations on your Revo -- it's a great little sailer -- for a kayak!

I haven't had any mast bending problems yet, but in stronger winds, I don't cleat off the sail so I can have a quicker response to the gusts.

If your sail shape is a little open on the leech and your sheeting position is here...
Image

you have several options to move it forward, closing the leech and improving performance. First, you can go here by replacing the screw-in cleat with a screw in padeye (note also the easier to use rear handle position):
Image
(Note, this is not as strong as either of the other styles shown -- test it first if you go with it) You can also reverse it easily if you don't like it -- no holes.

Or, you can screw in this style of padeye anywhere you like like (Adventure shown):
Image

Or, you can rig your sheeting block up on a trolley and experiment or easily change the position (Adventure also shown here):
Image

This should be less stressful on your mast as well.

If you plant your downwind foot firmly in the scallops it will tend to keep you in the cockpit even better and let you hike out more. I tend to plant both, especially with the Adventure!:8)
Image


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PostPosted: Fri Jan 16, 2009 4:52 am 
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Joined: Fri Dec 26, 2008 9:38 pm
Posts: 10
Location: Buderim, Sunshine Coast, QLD, Australia
Thanks for that RR, I was already thinking about a traveller. Good to see one done! And some other good ideas there as well. I have a few options there to give a go I think.

Cheers,
Ken.


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PostPosted: Fri Jan 16, 2009 10:58 am 
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Site Admin

Joined: Tue May 27, 2003 12:44 pm
Posts: 8918
Location: Oceanside, California
Two comments...

I wouldn't advise carrying the boat with the handle attached to the plastic eye as shown.

I would advise using a bullet block that does not swivel. The swivel allows the sheets to twist up when the sail is luffing and can cause sheeting / un-sheeting issues.

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Director of Parts and Accessory Sales
Hobie Cat USA


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PostPosted: Fri Jan 16, 2009 9:00 pm 
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Joined: Sat Nov 12, 2005 10:46 pm
Posts: 2389
Location: Escondido
mmiller wrote:
I would advise using a bullet block that does not swivel. The swivel allows the sheets to twist up when the sail is luffing and can cause sheeting / un-sheeting issues.


Great point -- that was an old picture before I knew better. A swivel block in an unaccessible area is a recipe for a jambed sheet and capsize! Thanks Matt for the correction.:oops:


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 Post subject: bent mast, rigging
PostPosted: Sat Jan 31, 2009 3:01 pm 
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Joined: Thu Apr 19, 2007 2:43 pm
Posts: 24
Location: New Mexico
I've got a Revo and bent my mast sailing in very strong winds. I straightened it out and then put an oak dowel in the bottom section. I had to sand down the diameter of the dowel for it to fit. I've been out in strong winds many times since and have not rebent the mast. The plastic mast hole seems to be holding up fine. I usually have sidekicks on in big weather, the mast does flex a lot with strong wind but doesn't stay bent.

I do roller reef in white caps more these days. I sometimes put a small hose clamp at the top of the sail to clamp it to the mast so that it doesn't unroll at the top. This requires rotating the mast as I reef but its all pretty easy; I sit on the hatch in front of the seat when doing this. I lake sail in New Mexico where we often get strong winds. Sometimes I'm the only boat with a sail up besides the windsurfers. With a reefed sail and sidekicks I can cope with a lot of wind.

I recommend improving the rigging and using a longer mainsheet so that you can be running straight downwind and still let the sail all the way out so that it is straight over your bow if a gust hits. Here is a link to some photos I posted on my rigging adaptations which make it much easier to sail.

[http://www.hobiecat.com/community/viewtopic.php?t=7065&highlight=wingit][/url]


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 Post subject: Re: bent mast, rigging
PostPosted: Sat Jan 31, 2009 10:33 pm 
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Joined: Fri Dec 26, 2008 9:38 pm
Posts: 10
Location: Buderim, Sunshine Coast, QLD, Australia
wingit wrote:
I've got a Revo and bent my mast sailing in very strong winds. I straightened it out and then put an oak dowel in the bottom section. I had to sand down the diameter of the dowel for it to fit. I've been out in strong winds many times since and have not rebent the mast. The plastic mast hole seems to be holding up fine. I usually have sidekicks on in big weather, the mast does flex a lot with strong wind but doesn't stay bent.

I do roller reef in white caps more these days. I sometimes put a small hose clamp at the top of the sail to clamp it to the mast so that it doesn't unroll at the top. This requires rotating the mast as I reef but its all pretty easy; I sit on the hatch in front of the seat when doing this. I lake sail in New Mexico where we often get strong winds. Sometimes I'm the only boat with a sail up besides the windsurfers. With a reefed sail and sidekicks I can cope with a lot of wind.

I recommend improving the rigging and using a longer mainsheet so that you can be running straight downwind and still let the sail all the way out so that it is straight over your bow if a gust hits. Here is a link to some photos I posted on my rigging adaptations which make it much easier to sail.

[http://www.hobiecat.com/community/viewtopic.php?t=7065&highlight=wingit][/url]


Thanks mate,
I am limiting myself to around 15 knots just to be as safe as possible, but have been looking for aluminium, fibreglass or pvc tube that fits neatly inside the mast to strengthen it, but cant find anything the right size. So I`ll probably try the timber dowel, I know I can get the right size in timber. I was just trying to get something that is lighter and more appropriate for a wet environment. I agree to the longer mainsheet, it`s a pity hobie dont just make the rope 2 feet longer isnt it.
Some thing I have done is, I now have a fibreglass batten that measures 6mm x 4mm that slides into the pocket on the foot of the sail to act as a boom. It works really good. On a run, I can go aprox twice as fast, and dont have any of that wobbling the sail used to do.

Cheers,
Ken.


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