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PostPosted: Mon Feb 02, 2009 11:16 am 
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Joined: Tue Jan 27, 2009 12:52 pm
Posts: 84
Location: Marseille, France, Europe
Hi every one,
Well it seems a few words of introduction are always welcomed on a forum, so...
I'm 37, two daughters of 6 and 7, live on the Mediterranean sea in Marseilles harbour. I've been sea kayaking from time to time (let's say about 20 outings a year) for almost 10 years. Went from an inflatable Gumotex Sunny to a SOT of 4.40m (DAG Midway), which I really enjoy as for convenience to get back in after snorkelling.
I am fortunate enough to have sufficient room to store the kayak and then just trail it to the launch with a cart, as it's a simple 5 minute walk.
And last but not least, I'm an avid kitesurfer, and have a broad quiver for all conditions (almost 100 sessions per year).

Oftentimes, I find myself paddling with the wind the Met Office said wouldn't be there ! Hence my interest in kayak sailing.
From experience, I know that if I first use a small V sail or Windpaddle, I will soon want more power / speed and then amas etc. Not being able to go upwind certainly misses the point for me. So, apart from its price (4100 euros where I live), the AI is the obvious answer for me.
Because even though I'm not really into fishing right now (but could get into), I clearly am a long distance freak : for instance I regularly clock 100km to 150km sessions kitesurfing in 4 to 6 hours. Same thing for every thing I've done (road biking, mountain biking, paragliding). And it's clear that being able to use 3 different means of propulsion (sail / peddle / paddle) can get one farther / faster than many other kayaks.

So for the patient lot of you (I mean those that are still reading ;) ), some questions now if you please :

1 - at what wind speed in knots do you start using the sail, on a close / beam reach and running with the wind ?

2 - how much less efficient / more tiring is it having to peddle the boat with the amas extended in no wind as compared to the Adventure alone ? Which speed can you cruise at in that configuration ? (might be of some importance if one goes out in the morning expecting the sea breeze to come in and finally finds nothing)

3 - how does it behave in choppy conditions (less than 1m high waves but rather frequent) ?

4 - is it really harmful to peddle the boat with the amas folded in ? (the user manual says so but some people say you can do it no problem for instance in narrow passages) That for me would be a matter of 5 minutes getting out of the harbour and getting back.

Many thanks in advance to share your experience, without this forum I wouldn't even consider buying one as where I live it's impossible to see or try one.


PS : if some of you want to share GPS tracks of their sessions, whether it be sailing or not, whatever the file format, I'd be very happy to analyse them with a brilliant piece of software called GPS action replay.


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PostPosted: Mon Feb 02, 2009 11:39 am 
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Location: Punta Gorda, FL
Hi Arno,

The sail starts to help in very little wind. Maybe 3 knots. Just enough to keep the sail from flogging around. It starts to really power the boat and make the pedals unnecessary at around 8-10 knots.

The extra drag of the amas in flat calm conditions is barely noticeable. It gets more noticeable in wind and chop, of course.

The AI goes through chop, not over it. It's a wet kind of fun! :D

You can pedal with amas folded in, but it's extremely inefficient. The amas fold in and down and come to rest at an angle. It's like dragging buckets behind you. You can see me pedaling a folded boat in this video:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FncgPZTh_1A

You didn't ask this question, but in my mind, the AI has two modes of propulsion. The Mirage Drive and the sail. I use my paddle to go backward and to bang on the sail to free the telltales that are always sticking. Oh, and I used it one time when I lost the Mirage Drive overboard and then the wind died. Paddling is by far the slowest and most tiring way to travel in an AI. The Mirage Drive is one of man's greatest creations. :D


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PostPosted: Mon Feb 02, 2009 12:49 pm 
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Joined: Fri Nov 21, 2008 3:39 am
Posts: 863
Location: Bairnsdale, Victoria Australia
Hello Arno, You sound a bit like the person I was at your age. I am approaching 60 now but was always the advenurous type. I had to smile at Tom's fine answers to your questions, especially to his suplimentary answer on the principal purpose of the paddle..LOL. One of the pursuits I did miss out on earlier in life is paddling as it always seemed far too slow for my fast lifestyle in those days. I am not sure whether it is lack of experience or the AI hull itself, but I do have difficulty paddling any distance when using it whether as a kayak or as a yacht. It doesn't seem to track well for me but as a peddle machine it is unsuppased. They both sail and peddle very well and will give you that buzz we all look for when the wind gets up above 15 knots. It is not that they have such a fast top speed which compared with some of the faster yachts they do not, but they feel they do as sheets of water roll down the deck as it bites into the waves rather than over them. A great innovative machine that can be used in several different ways which I can thoroughly recommend....Pirate


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PostPosted: Mon Feb 02, 2009 1:19 pm 
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Joined: Tue Jan 27, 2009 12:52 pm
Posts: 84
Location: Marseille, France, Europe
Hello Tom,

Beforehand, thanks a lot for your detailed answer.

Quote:
The sail starts to help in very little wind. Maybe 3 knots. Just enough to keep the sail from flogging around. It starts to really power the boat and make the pedals unnecessary at around 8-10 knots.


That's exactly what I wanted to know.
And I do see the considerable & original advantage the AI has over most other boats by being able to produce and sustain some more apparent wind through peddling. Windsurfing we can pump the sail but it's very tiring over a long course.

Quote:
The extra drag of the amas in flat calm conditions is barely noticeable. It gets more noticeable in wind and chop, of course.


Great piece of news again for me as here, chop is directly related to wind : it is very rare indeed that we meet swell without wind. So in other words if one is in the situation of having to peddle with a completely furled sail, in our prevailing water state conditions, it means that there won't be any noticeable chop.

Quote:
The AI goes through chop, not over it. It's a wet kind of fun! :D


Actually I like that, and prefer it over a sit-inside kayak, among other reasons.

Quote:
You can pedal with amas folded in, but it's extremely inefficient. The amas fold in and down and come to rest at an angle. It's like dragging buckets behind you. You can see me pedaling a folded boat in this video:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FncgPZTh_1A


Quote from page 9 of the user manual
"Pivoting Akas and the Locking Crossbrace
The Adventure Island is equipped with pivoting akas to
make it easy to get on and off the boat from a dock. As
the akas fold in, they also move down to give you plenty
of stability even when folded in. Do not sail the boat
with the akas folded in."
I think I had overlooked that bit and misunderstood it : they say not to SAIL the boat amas folded in, but perhaps we can PEDDLE it this way without damage ? (as you demonstrate in your video, thanks BTW to you and other contributors as it surely makes things clearer)

Quote:
You didn't ask this question, but in my mind, the AI has two modes of propulsion. The Mirage Drive and the sail. I use my paddle to go backward and to bang on the sail to free the telltales that are always sticking. Oh, and I used it one time when I lost the Mirage Drive overboard and then the wind died. Paddling is by far the slowest and most tiring way to travel in an AI. The Mirage Drive is one of man's greatest creations. :D


... as long as it is kept safely leashed I reckon :lol:
Well that's something not to be doubted, as stated by the overwhelming majority of those who actually tried the Mirage drive.
The reason why I still contemplate it is that it could be a precious way, on a windless day, to have the legs take a break after a few hours, without having to actually stop. Just for a change.

Well Tom, I don't know if you have any affiliation with Hobie, but you definitely sell them right 8)
Many thanks


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PostPosted: Mon Feb 02, 2009 1:37 pm 
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Joined: Wed Dec 19, 2007 4:07 am
Posts: 598
Location: Punta Gorda, FL
I work at a dealership where we sell Hobie sailboats among other products. At least, we try to... ;)


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PostPosted: Tue Feb 03, 2009 1:10 pm 
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Joined: Tue Jan 27, 2009 12:52 pm
Posts: 84
Location: Marseille, France, Europe
Hi again,

Tom, I'd be happy to deal with you but you're a little too far away ! Anyway, thanks for taking time to answer on the forum.

Pirate, sorry I don't know how I missed your answer !
I understand what you say about relative speed of the AI, as while being accustomed to cruise at more or less 15-20 kts, with runs at 35kts kitesurfing, I still never found my current sea kayak slow, although it tops out at 5.5kts !
Different situation, different feeling. And when I see all the video clips of the AI (like yours, thanks, and yes BTW, red goes faster ;) ) , I know I won't be disappointed. I also showed some of them to a friend of mine, which is a better kayaker than I am (he's into merathons on close to 6m boats), he was pretty impressed as well.

So everyone agrees that there is a life to the AI under 10kts, thanks to its unique peddling abilities, together with the sail giving a hand rather early ?
I do not intend to use the AI mainly sub 10kts, but waiting for the wind to pick up, or peddling out to the wind line, I will be confronted to this situation and I wanna make sure before shedding 4 grands !

Cheers !


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PostPosted: Fri Feb 06, 2009 8:42 pm 
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Joined: Thu Aug 16, 2007 2:25 pm
Posts: 2003
Location: Central Coast NSW Australia
Arno,
You asked for some GPS tracks but there is no provision for posting those files in this forum.
Here are some pics with details of the GPS tracks to give you some idea of what to expect out of an AI.
Winds on each occasion were around 10 -15 Knots. Don't expect to cover the same distances in your AI that you do with your windsurfer! It's still great fun though! :wink:

Image

Image

Image


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PostPosted: Fri Feb 06, 2009 9:31 pm 
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Joined: Sat Nov 12, 2005 10:46 pm
Posts: 2405
Location: Escondido
Stringy, that's a pretty amazing inland waterway system you have there. Is it fresh or saltwater? 8)


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PostPosted: Fri Feb 06, 2009 10:18 pm 
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Joined: Fri Dec 05, 2008 2:32 am
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Location: Calga NSW, Australia
That's just part of it Roadrunner: http://www.cruising-broken-bay.com/

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PostPosted: Fri Feb 06, 2009 11:15 pm 
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Location: Bairnsdale, Victoria Australia
Great posts Chris. Mickey and I will definately get up there with our AIs. What GPS are you using?..Pirate


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PostPosted: Sat Feb 07, 2009 12:10 am 
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Location: Calga NSW, Australia
Pirate wrote:
Great posts Chris. Mickey and I will definately get up there with our AIs. What GPS are you using?..Pirate


I think its Stringy you are wanting to speak to Pirate, but I know from his previous posts he uses a Nokia Navigator phone.

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PostPosted: Sat Feb 07, 2009 1:02 am 
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Location: Ettalong Beach, Central Coast, Australia
chrisj wrote:
That's just part of it Roadrunner: http://www.cruising-broken-bay.com/


They are not all there. The central coast has a huge amount of fantastic waterways for sailing.

Google map of Mannering Park

If you zoom out a bit, you will soon see what I mean. Broken Bay is some distance south however. Broken Bay is Salt water, but I think Lake Macquarie is pretty fresh. But its certainly open to the sea.


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PostPosted: Sat Feb 07, 2009 1:16 am 
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Location: Calga NSW, Australia
Geoff wrote:
chrisj wrote:
That's just part of it Roadrunner: http://www.cruising-broken-bay.com/


They are not all there. The central coast has a huge amount of fantastic waterways for sailing.

Google map of Mannering Park

If you zoom out a bit, you will soon see what I mean. Broken Bay is some distance south however. Broken Bay is Salt water, but I think Lake Macquarie is pretty fresh. But its certainly open to the sea.


Yeah, I know, but two of Stringy's pics were of Broken Bay and Brisbane Water, which is a tributary of Broken Bay. I left out Lake Macquarie (the other pic) and the Tuggerah Lakes - didn't have a website for them. They are all pretty salty. Of course, they segue into your part of the world and the Myall Lakes, which are even more amazing IMHO.

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PostPosted: Sat Feb 07, 2009 2:47 am 
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Joined: Tue Jan 27, 2009 12:52 pm
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Location: Marseille, France, Europe
Waow, that's some pretty neat input from you Stringy !
Many many thanks
If you have the tracks still at hand, please do not hesitate to send them at beaudhuin@yahoo.com (from, I can straight away obtain the polar plot diagram of the AI in these conditions)

Oh and by the way for those interested, two simple & efficient devices for water use that I've had :
- Garmin Foretrex 211 (better than 111 because it has an internal battery = no leak)
- Locosys GT31 (better accuracy and GPS track speed than the previous GT11).
And again, give a good look at GPS action replay, invaluable for sailing / kitesurfing speed addicts :oops:


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PostPosted: Sat Feb 07, 2009 6:31 am 
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Joined: Thu Apr 26, 2007 9:57 am
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Location: Phuket, Thailand
Garmin foretrex 201 and speedsurfing.com...THE way 2 go!!!!! :D


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