Hobie Cat Forums

It is currently Fri Jul 25, 2014 2:10 am

All times are UTC - 8 hours [ DST ]




Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 28 posts ]  Go to page 1, 2  Next
Author Message
 Post subject: Miracle performance vs?
PostPosted: Wed Feb 11, 2009 10:33 am 
Offline
Site Rank - Captain

Joined: Mon Jan 07, 2008 10:05 pm
Posts: 136
Location: Shasta Lake/ Redding, CA
hey everybody, I am an h18 owner, and i'm thinking of of trading up to a Miracle, simply for performance. How does this boat compare to an H18 or a Nacra20 or even a Tornado. Anyone have any approximates or general idea. lookin' for speed up and downwind!

thank you all in advance,

Wes

_________________
Wes
98 Miracle 20 + magnum wings


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Wed Feb 11, 2009 1:50 pm 
Offline
Site Rank - Old Salt

Joined: Mon May 09, 2005 10:25 am
Posts: 2517
Location: Jersey Shore
The 20 has a lot more performance "potential" than the 18. I've never sailed a Nacra 20 or Tornado, but both of those boats are spinaker boats, so a little different. The H20 is probably more similar to a Nacra 6.0 or a Prindle 19.

In any case, it is a very noticable difference when compared to the 18 in anything more than a very light breeze. The 20 goes upwind like it's on rails and is a beast downwind in a breeze. It's not like the 18 where you can just let out all the mainsheet and traveler and just sort of limp home, the boat wants to go and it want's to be pushed- but that's what makes it exciting. I have definitely enjoyed both boats, they both have their place. Just be aware that the 20 requires a higher level of tuning and user input than the 18, so it's best sailed with a consistent crew that is interested in taking an active role in sailing the boat. But yea, if speed is what you're looking for, the 20 won't disappoint.

sm


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Wed Feb 11, 2009 4:21 pm 
Offline
Site Rank - Old Salt

Joined: Fri Aug 03, 2007 10:46 am
Posts: 1089
Location: eureka,california
Wes
Have you considered a Tiger?
The N-20 nice platform modern design, alot of cash to buy,and possiblely moving from carbon mast to alum wing mast.
Tornado great boat . 10 ft beam can be problematic, tilt trailer required, alot of used parts available from old olympic boats.
H20 great upwind and fun off the wind. Good west coast racing fleet.

Tiger I love the boat I chose the tiger over the 20 because I wanted spin racing in class. Let me know if you want to go out for a spin I'll bring her over to whiskey town, or come out to woodward some time.
Rich

_________________
Rich Vilvens
F-18 5150
R.Vilvens@yahoo.com
http://www.sailblogs.com/member/f-185150sailing/


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Wed Feb 11, 2009 5:26 pm 
Offline
Site Rank - Old Salt

Joined: Wed Jul 21, 2004 7:46 pm
Posts: 1468
Location: Santa Cruz
Well... a few things to consider Wes. What is your price range? Like rich said the Tiger is pretty cool and should bear consideration.
Tornados are cool, but scarce around these parts. You'll be fabricating a lot of parts and tinkering a lot-and the 10' beam adds a hassle. Yeah, they go pretty good, but is all the headache worth it? And the cost to keep it going is quite high. There are 2 older Tornados here in SC. One is a late 70's and the other is a Reg White from the 80's-- right around 3G's.

I20's are fast! They are also delicate and twitchy. My friend Adam is a very accomplished racer on all kinds of boats and his eyes get a little big when he talks about the I20. The potential to get very overpowered is there. Good SoCal boat where the wind it typically lighter. Parts are pricey. A mast will ding you $12,000. (not $1200)

The 20 might be the ticket in your area for several reasons. There are a few good used boats out there right now here in Div 3. We have an active racing class, parts are available, they're fast, they're durable.

You going to come racing with us this year?

_________________
Sail Revolution
Join us on our new FB Page!


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Wed Feb 11, 2009 8:18 pm 
Offline
Site Rank - Captain

Joined: Mon Jan 07, 2008 10:05 pm
Posts: 136
Location: Shasta Lake/ Redding, CA
Wow, great replies, thanks, you guys!

Obviously, I want to keep it Hobie, because of the great source of knowledge, parts, and the know how around these parts(you guys), and i kinda know the boats somewhat, other brands mean learning it all... all over again, making new parts contacts and etc.

I have, what i feel is a dream H18...wings, new sails etc. Why would I want more...? I'll tell you what got my eye wandering...

I picked up this old but complete Tornado(with tilting hydraulic trailer). When i bought it, i didn't even know what it was, I was told it was a Panthercraft, not a Tornado...huh?...ok...the price was right, it looked cool and I love sailboats, sailing and especially beachcats, just like you guys...so, i bought it...planning to keep my baby, i wanted to expand my fleet and start a new project for the love of 'messing about in boats'...the trailer needs a lot of new steel and that's what I'm working on right now(welder's cooling off as i type).

when i first saw it! wow! it struck me like an F-16 fighter compared to my old barn stormer...and later when i found out what it really was, i thought even better of it. I found out that it is a one design Olympic racer, easily one of the fastest two man beachcats ever designed! Flat out hull speed, is what it is best at.

It is a complete boat and every thing is there, daggers, rudders, mast, etc. So, i decided I'm going to take this thing on right...figure it all out, put it all together, make the trailer safe, clean it up, replace blocks, lines so on and so forth...this thing has really got into my head, as i'm imagining my self, blistering across the lake at record speed...making my 18 seem more and more like a piper cub compared to this tactical fighter, as far as looks and so called performance, sitting next to it...and then I learn that there are these things called 'Marstrom Tornados' or "Reg White Tornados", they are basically the same as an older tornado as far as hull SHAPE, but they are improved upon, but still one design,built out of modern materials - Kevlar-epoxy hulls(light weight 350~380 pounds rigged w/sails), high aspect ratio modern sail plan, same for the daggers and rudders, self tacking jib setups, spinnakers and some even have carbon masts...Whoa!! and if you buy one right (not too new) you'll spend the same as a really nice H21 or Miracle...minus the carbon mast, and more importantly, the plethora of support, considering all aspects.

to try and keep this as short as possible...I love my Hobie, but I DO like the thought of a measurably higher performance cat. So, what I've been thinking is, sell it all, skip trying an F-18 boat of any kind, and work towards a mid-nineties Marstrom-Tornado with a spin... ride the lightning!!...even the Wikipedia describes it as the 'formula 1 race car of the two man catamarans'...

keep in mind, i do some single handing and also want to include my family here and there. please...am i crazy?...would a Miracle, H21 or N20 with spinns, give me the same or similar performance, or better yet, thrill me over an H18 with a custom spinn set up?

one major draw back with a Tornado, would be it's beam...I would have to sell the tilt trailer with the Panthercraft, seeing it's worth more than the boat itself, to make the $ work towards the new boat.

the Marstrom would have to be broke down and put on a flat bed type trailer to take it to the lake...and then it would have to be transported from ramp to dry storage and vise versa, via dollie.

ok, I'm ready, let me have it!!

thanks in advance guys, really

wes

_________________
Wes
98 Miracle 20 + magnum wings


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Wed Feb 11, 2009 8:22 pm 
Offline
Site Rank - Captain

Joined: Mon Jan 07, 2008 10:05 pm
Posts: 136
Location: Shasta Lake/ Redding, CA
P.S. thanks for the offer Rich, I'LL probably take you up on it.
Jeremy, you guys are just so far away...one of these days you might see me there though...we might move that way soon.

_________________
Wes
98 Miracle 20 + magnum wings


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Wed Feb 11, 2009 8:35 pm 
Offline
Site Rank - Old Salt

Joined: Fri Aug 03, 2007 10:46 am
Posts: 1089
Location: eureka,california
Wes
Single handing a tornado. Clasic rig maybe, but sport rig I don't think so. Do you have a aluminum teardrop mast with a pin head main? Is your hull wood or glass?
Up wind the 20 is a little faster , but when the wind comes up the tiger holds it own. Down wind if you spin kit the 20 they are about equal. The advantage of the tiger is the self tacker and longer daggers for lift. Also the tiger can be fitted with wings.
Sail them all then make a decision.
Rich

_________________
Rich Vilvens
F-18 5150
R.Vilvens@yahoo.com
http://www.sailblogs.com/member/f-185150sailing/


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Wed Feb 11, 2009 11:18 pm 
Offline
Site Rank - Captain

Joined: Mon Jan 07, 2008 10:05 pm
Posts: 136
Location: Shasta Lake/ Redding, CA
aluminum mast, pin head main and glass hulls.


Howa bout a H21se vs. marstrom tornado vs. tiger vs. miracle/ these things considered---- 1...speed and handling 2...cost 3...family friendly. put the boats in the order that makes the most sense.


wes

_________________
Wes
98 Miracle 20 + magnum wings


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Thu Feb 12, 2009 12:43 pm 
Offline
Site Rank - Old Salt

Joined: Fri Aug 03, 2007 10:46 am
Posts: 1089
Location: eureka,california
H-21se. Nice boat older cut deep down spin set up. Wings in the hull. 10 ft beam with slides slides down to 8 for trailering. Centerboards, and a older sail configuration. Can be hard to find replacement parts for mast ect and I believe comp tipped.
H-20 Alot of boats available locally. Good racing fleet. Hulls are becoming scarce. Not in production anymore. Can be spin rigged. not very family friendly tramp.
Tiger/Infusion/Capricorn/F-18 Modern foils and sails. Square top mains, pentex self tacking jibs, Flatter cut spins. Designed to perform with current designs. Verry controlable. Alot of adjustments to power up or down the sails. Standard and small spins available. Probably the sturdiest hulls of the group. Possibly the new Olympic Cat Current debate is "One Design" Tornado , or the Tiger.
Marstrom Tornado The only boat faster is the Marstrom 20. 20 ft and under. Great platforms but if the olympic class leaves the tornado consider it a dead class in my opinion. Find a sail maker because they are going to cost. 10 ft beam likes to turtle, atleast the older one I sailed did.
Speed 1 tornado 2 h-20/tiger 4 h-21
handling 1 tiger 2 tornado 3 h-20 4 h-21
Cost 1 h-20 2 tiger 3 h-21 4 tornado
family friendly 1 tiger (w wings) 2 h-21 3 h-20 4 tornado

_________________
Rich Vilvens
F-18 5150
R.Vilvens@yahoo.com
http://www.sailblogs.com/member/f-185150sailing/


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Thu Feb 12, 2009 1:36 pm 
Offline
Site Rank - Captain

Joined: Thu Aug 24, 2006 11:24 am
Posts: 81
Hello Wes:

Let me give you a perspective from someone who owns both a Hobie 18 and a Hobie 20. (both are on my trailer in San Jose with my son's H-14).
I own a 1989 Worlds Hobie 18 and a 2000 Alter Cup Hobie 20.

I keep the 18 and use it as a Santa Cruz beach boat, which I think it is ideal for. The 20 I use for regattas mostly. I like sailing the 20 more, even though the competition on the 20 is very big in Division 3 and I am bringing up the rear in most races. I can actually hike out more on the 20 than the 18 upwind being a big guy so this has added a lot of fun. There is an active group of top sailors on the 20 in division 3.

For spinnakers, Tim Parsons and Mark Lewis (2 of the top sailors) have worked out a rig for adding spins to the 20. They have used them in long distance races. Tim's comment once about the Tiger is it is an "expensive Mistress". Cost wise, you can get onto a used 20 and have a lot of fun for less money than a Tiger will run you. The Tiger is also a great boat if you can afford it.

Bottom line is look at what you want to do with your boat and this should help you make your decision. I know there are a number of Hobie 20 sailors here in Division 3 that would help you.

Hope this helps.

Dwight Manning

_________________
Dwight Manning
Hobie 20 #916 San Jose CA 2000 Alter Cup boat
Hobie 18 #916 Santa Cruz CA 1989 Worlds Boat
Hobie 16 #16 San Jose CA (Jordan) 2005 Custom Main
Hobie 16 #54466 Calling Lake Alta Tequila sunrise


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Thu Feb 12, 2009 1:37 pm 
Offline
Site Rank - Captain

Joined: Mon Jan 07, 2008 10:05 pm
Posts: 136
Location: Shasta Lake/ Redding, CA
YOU...SIR....are the MAN! thanks Rich, for your valuable input. I will think long and hard before making a decision. I still would like to sail with you on your Tiger next time you are up this way.

I like the tiger idea ALOT! i just think that they are out of my price range...$7000 and up for something that is not broke in two pieces...you know? or am i wrong?

any others want to to chime in?

_________________
Wes
98 Miracle 20 + magnum wings


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Thu Feb 12, 2009 1:40 pm 
Offline
Site Rank - Captain

Joined: Mon Jan 07, 2008 10:05 pm
Posts: 136
Location: Shasta Lake/ Redding, CA
Thanks for your input Dwight.


any others?

_________________
Wes
98 Miracle 20 + magnum wings


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Thu Feb 12, 2009 1:54 pm 
Offline
Site Rank - Old Salt

Joined: Fri Aug 03, 2007 10:46 am
Posts: 1089
Location: eureka,california
Yes Dwight .
The Tiger can be an expensive mistress but the pricing has been coming down. But he is also looking at the Marstrom Tornado which makes the Tiger look cheap. There are used boats available on the west coast right now Tigers and H-20's Even a H-21. Alot of the Tiger expence is sails, but now we have a west coast supplier who can get us spins mains ect for non hobie racing, at a considerable cost savings.
As for performance the 2 are pretty equal when sailed properly. Mark Lewis (h-20 spin)and Phil Meridith (tiger) finished the Moss Landing run and Ditch run fairly even. Phil overall leader both times, but really close.
They are all good choices but in the end its up to Wes.
I have sailed all 4 boats and just wanted to give my points of view.

_________________
Rich Vilvens
F-18 5150
R.Vilvens@yahoo.com
http://www.sailblogs.com/member/f-185150sailing/


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Thu Feb 12, 2009 3:18 pm 
Offline
Site Rank - Captain

Joined: Mon Jan 07, 2008 10:05 pm
Posts: 136
Location: Shasta Lake/ Redding, CA
I would like to have a Tiger i think, because of the wings and self tacker...speed, plus family friendly and single handed friendly...plus a Tiger will most likely have a spin included, which I want.

BUTTT... I'll probably end up with a H20 because of cost...and then rig it with a spin to add additional fun!

man that Tiger sure looks good though.

where are these used boats you talk of?

An H21se wouldn't be as fast as a Tiger huh, or a H20 upwind? interesting :?:

_________________
Wes
98 Miracle 20 + magnum wings


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Thu Feb 12, 2009 3:31 pm 
Offline
Site Rank - Old Salt

Joined: Fri Aug 03, 2007 10:46 am
Posts: 1089
Location: eureka,california
The 20 is a good choice. You can run the Tiger spin on it. Mark and Steve run the same rig. There is one tiger in seattle and atleast one in so cal. $12000 in seattle $10000 in socal. One more may be on the market but I'm not sure.

_________________
Rich Vilvens
F-18 5150
R.Vilvens@yahoo.com
http://www.sailblogs.com/member/f-185150sailing/


Top
 Profile  
 
Display posts from previous:  Sort by  
Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 28 posts ]  Go to page 1, 2  Next

All times are UTC - 8 hours [ DST ]


Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 2 guests


You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum

Search for:
Jump to:  
Powered by phpBB® Forum Software © phpBB Group