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PostPosted: Fri Mar 20, 2009 6:46 am 
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Joined: Fri Sep 19, 2008 4:07 pm
Posts: 400
Location: CLEARWATER, MN
Has any one ever determined why some hulls get more water than others?

When I received my 2009, I carefully unscrewed all of the 'screw' plugs and coated them with silicon grease. I also carefully coated the rubber seals on my hatches. In a dark garage, I had a friend shine a bright light
along the front hatch and I could see no direct light shining into the hull. I applied 'Marine Goop' to the ends of all of the interior fasteners that I could reach. I checked that there were 'plugs' on all of the spectra lines inside the rudder poly tubes.

Yet after all this...I still get water in the hull.
Is there enough pressure from a 'following sea' to force water through
the rudder tubes into the hull in significant volume?
I have not had the chance to use my new dodger and spray shield to see if that will make a difference. If so, then the water must be coming in through top surface openings (tiller, etc.)

I have been trying to figure out a way to determine where the majority of the water is coming from?

I keep my emergency tool kits,etc., in the hull in waterproof bags and boxes but hate to see them floating after a sail. It is also impossible to
keep them from floating and banging when there is water inside.
I do try to tie them down but there are very few attachment points inside
the hull.

I have decided to install a small battery-powered sump pump with an automatic switch in the stern.


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PostPosted: Fri Mar 20, 2009 7:07 am 
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Joined: Tue Jun 03, 2008 7:23 pm
Posts: 60
Location: Ft Lauderdale FL
Unfortunately the twist and seal hatches leak like crazy. I have come to the conclusion that the only way to reduce water in the hull is to replace the hatches. I also noticed last trip with the AI fully loaded in good sizede swells that the seat well fills up if you leave the plugs in. This causes a sheet of water to canstantly flow over the misdships twist and seal hatch on its way to the drivewell. Next time I am going to take the plugs out and let all that water drain throough them instead of flowing over the hatch.

BTW: I am in the market for replacement hatches if anyone knows of a good fit. Hey Matt how about Hobie coming up with an aftermarket replacement.


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PostPosted: Fri Mar 20, 2009 2:14 pm 
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Joined: Tue May 27, 2003 12:44 pm
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Location: Oceanside, California
A properly sealed Twist-n-Seal hatch is one of the best sealed hatches made. We moved away from Viking hatches because of leaks. The Hobie designed one does not depend on a tight and evenly seated lid. The o ring seals within a cylinder rather than against a flat. Leaks are more common around the outer flange ring and hull seal than through the o ring itself.

Where else to look? Use the air pressure test described in the FAQ forum.

You have to understand... this is not a submarine. Sailing the AI in swells can drive the forward hatch under water. That is your most likely entry point. The large hatch flanges, steering line tubes... and lastly the twist-n-seal hatches.

You can not expect a hull driven hard and flexing... actually pumping pressure through hatches and flanges to stay fully water tight. The hull will suck water past the best seals.

Are we going to offer a different hatch as a replacement? No. From our experience with other hatches... these are pretty darn good.

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Matt Miller
Director of Parts and Accessory Sales
Hobie Cat USA


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PostPosted: Fri Mar 20, 2009 4:49 pm 
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Joined: Tue Jun 19, 2007 6:14 pm
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Location: South Florida
Matt,

I think in the real world things are NOT as you suggest. If water were coming in the front hatch things under the front hatch cover would be wet--that is not the case. Many sea kayaks use a design similar to the AI front hatch. They are not water tight, but they do not leak excessively.

Where things are wet from water coming from above is mainly the center hatch, and, perhaps to a lesser degree, the stern hatch.

In the real world, the o-rings get twisted--easily. A twisted o-ring means a leaky twist-n-seal hatch. Also, in this real world, sand is a problem for the o-ring. In order to close properly, the o-ring and hatch opening must be free from sand. That is a problem since these boats are used on beaches.

So, the twist-n-seal hatches may work fine in Hobie's facilities, but, for those of us who use them in less than ideal conditions, leaky twist-n-seal hatches are a fact of life. I do believe that cleaning and lubricating the o-ring with silicone grease before each trip is critical. Danco silicone grease can be purchased at Home Depot in the US.

I don't know what you mean by "Viking" hatches. I do know that VCP hatches (Valley Canoe Products) do not leak. You and others can read a short discussion of these hatches at http://www.atlantickayaktours.com/pages/Retail/Parts-Repair/Hatch-Covers.shtml

We've been through this before and nothing has happened to change things.

Keith

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I sail: Biscayne Bay, Everglades to Cape Romano, Ft Desoto, Cedar Key

"Any intelligent fool can make things bigger and more complex ... It takes a touch of genius and a lot of courage to move in the opposite direction." A. Einstein


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PostPosted: Fri Mar 20, 2009 7:21 pm 
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Location: Ft Lauderdale FL
Matt, Matt, Matt, I am normally the first one to defend Hobie but I have to call a big Bullsh*&t to your last post. First off my forward hatch was not awash but a few times this past weekend. It never submarined. Second I know the middle hatch was leaking like a sieve because I had a canvas bag under it resting on a plastic piece of tupperware far above any water and it was soaked from the top down. The water is not leaking around the edges of the hatch but through the twist a seal "cylinder". Besides that anytime you open this poorly designed lid in wet conditions you dump at least an ounce on water into the hull. We had far more water tight hatches on Hobie 18s in the early 80s. You guys need to leave theoretical land and actually get out in the field where the rest of us live. Time to pull your heads out of the sand and smell the sea water.


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PostPosted: Fri Mar 20, 2009 9:55 pm 
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Location: Oceanside, California
Guys... we LIVE the real World here at Hobie and use the product in Real World applications. I know the level of frustration first hand and BY FAR... the hatches used now are BETTER than past product. (I hate this saying), but. "That said" there are potential issues with every sealing design. We know the o-ring can twist and know it still seals that way in most cases. The design does allow a small amount of water to enter when opening due to collection around the flange and above the seal upon opening. I have asked for more of a drip less seal. All in all.... complaints and claims from leaky hatches is low... sales are MUCH higher, so from my prospective... a better situation than before the Twist-n-seal hit the market.

Not to say that I am not listening though... I am, we are.

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Matt Miller
Director of Parts and Accessory Sales
Hobie Cat USA


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Fri Mar 20, 2009 10:13 pm 
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Joined: Thu Apr 26, 2007 9:57 am
Posts: 222
Location: Phuket, Thailand
quirkster wrote:
Matt, Matt, Matt, I am normally the first one to defend Hobie but I have to call a big Bullsh*&t to your last post. First off my forward hatch was not awash but a few times this past weekend. It never submarined. Second I know the middle hatch was leaking like a sieve because I had a canvas bag under it resting on a plastic piece of tupperware far above any water and it was soaked from the top down. The water is not leaking around the edges of the hatch but through the twist a seal "cylinder". Besides that anytime you open this poorly designed lid in wet conditions you dump at least an ounce on water into the hull. We had far more water tight hatches on Hobie 18s in the early 80s. You guys need to leave theoretical land and actually get out in the field where the rest of us live. Time to pull your heads out of the sand and smell the sea water.


Come on Chekika....and from someone who contributes so many interesting and helpful posts. I am by no means an appologist for Hobiecat
but I think you are a bit over the mark

I probably havent been out in the seas you have experienced but fishing in tidelines here sometimes running against a moderate breeze in swells nearly overhead from my sitting position (say 3') close hauled (thinking how dumb I am not to be somehow attached to the boat) and crashing thru all this stuff close hauled like a sledge I have returned to the beach suprised to find very little water in the hull. Your driving a hull designed to move through the water at lets say 4 knots probably close to double that under sail and i think its doing pretty well. Its a hybrid craft, a swiss army knife of a boat as someone here once described it.

Thank GOD for a hatch that you can open one handed with the turn of a handle, the times I have had to reach in to grab something Fast or to post a recalcitrant fish into the bilge and I have had only one hand free. I would hate to have to deal with a screw down hatch.

I am on my second AI, the first did let a little more water in than the second, the seal did twist but then I just took it off and straightened it out.

So maybe with great respect time to take our heads out of the sea and take a look at what we have here...a boat thats taken you on all those trips, the constant revisions being made to it, those revisions largely made as a result of constructive criticism.

Good to hear you were sailing an 18 in the 80's, werent they fun? I rarely had to open the hatches at sea on mine, they were screw down. I would HATE to have to deal with the same kind of hatch on the AI.

Best regards,

Philip


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PostPosted: Fri Mar 20, 2009 11:43 pm 
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Joined: Wed Dec 07, 2005 11:04 pm
Posts: 617
Location: Hawaii, Big Island
Matt

1.Awhile back ???? recommended some type of new seal for the front hatch which you sounded enthusiatic about. How did that pan out, and could you provide it in a kit. As I recall ??? had to buy enough footage for 4 hatches.

2. But as tight as 1 above might be, have your engineers ever worn those old nikes? The ones with a pump? Why not an inflatable seal? I see from a google search there are quite a few firms in the business making inflatable seals.

Just from and engineering standpoint it would seem a hand held bulb air pump would be more than adequate to get a tight seal. You only open the front hatch maybe once or twice anyway when underway so a repump after closing the hatch shouldn't be too dificult

Again if you switch over maybe a retro fit kit as per above.

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PostPosted: Sat Mar 21, 2009 6:44 am 
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Location: South Florida
Philip,

The quote you attribute to me is not mine.

Quirkster is a bit frustrated. Those of us who use these boats for camping or have valuble gear in in the hull as we sail, are disappointed that the Twist-n-Seal hatches do not seal better. For the Twist-n-Seal covers, there are 2 problems. (1) They are level and not designed to shed water. (2) They have only a single "sealing" feature: the o-ring. If the o-ring is not working properly, the hatch leaks. It is very easy for the ring to get twisted (it may take a close inspection to see the twist.)

Hobie needs to replace the current o-ring w/ a better design. To act like there is not a problem, is ignoring the problem and the customer.

I continue to argue that the bow hatch is not a serious problem. It is a reasonably designed opening and cover. This hatch probably does not leak except in heavy seas where the bow is being buried under water for longer than 3-4 seconds. It has 5 features to prevent leaking: a moat around the opening and 2 independent rubber seals. The hatch is designed to shed water, and, finally, it is one of the highest points on the hull.

Keith

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I sail: Biscayne Bay, Everglades to Cape Romano, Ft Desoto, Cedar Key

"Any intelligent fool can make things bigger and more complex ... It takes a touch of genius and a lot of courage to move in the opposite direction." A. Einstein


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PostPosted: Sat Mar 21, 2009 7:22 am 
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Location: Florida
I probable have one of the oldest Islands out there and many miles to boot.

The main issue I have with the hatch is that the rubber "o" seal always want to twist. I used to fiddle with 'em to try to reseat them but gave up - because upon reopening the hatch they would just twist again. Gave up and usually end up pounding the hatch fully shut after twisting the handle closed. :lol:

Remarkably, even with funky, twisted "o" rings I only get a cup or 2 of water in the boat after 6 hours of brisk sailing. This would be disappointing if I had gear I wanted to keep dry, but otherwise it is not a real big deal.

I think if you oiled the "o" ring w/ the proper lube, make sure it is seated and free of dirt and closed the hatch it would not leak. Utill the next time you open the hatch - which twists the "o" ring and gets dirt on the seal.

My wife goes out in same conditions as me but never opens her T&S hatches, which have been properly detwisted, oiled, cleaned and sealed. She never gets water in her hull.

On the water it is just too much trouble to properly redo a T&S hatch seal to make it 100% watertight again.


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 Post subject: Hatch Leakage!!!
PostPosted: Sat Mar 21, 2009 10:04 am 
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Joined: Sun Jul 08, 2007 6:39 pm
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Location: Venice, Florida
I haven't posted on the "leakage problem" before. I left that to Keith (Chekika) because of his years of experience and knowledge of "whats reasonable" to be expected with kayaks. My AI is only my 2nd kayak, and my leakage problem is worse than Keith's, so I was expecting we would come up with a fix on this forum--but it doesn't seem that everyone has as bad a problem as others. But...

Matt, I find some of your responses dismissive, insulting, and certainly not in the best interest of Hobie. Keith has a house and garage full of kayaks. He's a competitive racer. He's a member of a very active sea kayaking club in the Miami area. He knows what's going on in the kayak world--and the differences between kayaks and what to expect from them. He's not a whimpering complainer. He's an intelligent, reasonable, professional, just trying to be conscientious and helpful to other AI owners, and to Hobie.

Aloha Dan's post above mentions an "inflatable seal". Sounds like something that should be looked at. Matt, let us know you're doing something to fix this.

Don't get me wrong, Keith and I love our AIs, and will probably move up to the new tandem model (if also engineered as expedition kayak--able to carry/protect extra gear on week-long/multi-day trips), but if I were Hobie, I would put stock in what certain people on this forum have to say. "Chekika" is one of them.

Very respectfully, Happy AI Owner.

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------------------
Hobie AI & WS Tempest 180 Pro
SW Gulf Coast: Sarasota to Keys

I'm not completely useless. I can always serve as a bad example.


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PostPosted: Sat Mar 21, 2009 10:17 am 
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Location: Punta Gorda, FL
I feel so left out! My boats don't leak!

I have only found a tiny amount of water inside them, and only after driving them pretty hard through the chop. Most days I come home with a dry hull.

I have also never managed to get the hatch seal to twist.


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 Post subject: Hatch Leakage!!!
PostPosted: Sat Mar 21, 2009 10:46 am 
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Location: Venice, Florida
Hey Tom!

You gotta get out more! I do appreciate you working hard and paying those Social Security taxes though--how else would I be able to buy the new tandem.

About the leaks, you're not gonna have a problem back on the creeks in the backwaters of the Peace River, but if you loaded up the boat for a multi-day trip and were sailing across wide open bays between the far out coastal islands of the ENP in the Gulf for 5-6 hours sometimes against high winds and seas you'd see what Keith and I are experiencing.

Are we expecting too much? Maybe? But like other nuisances; e.g., old non-sailing rudder and hold-down system, old sprockets/masts, old main mast seating pin, etc, etc, ... we're just trying to put our collective heads together so we can improve our favorite toy.

I hope Hobie appreciates our efforts and accepts comments for what they are intended to be--reasonable expectations--not reasons for us to look elsewhere.

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Polecat
------------------
Hobie AI & WS Tempest 180 Pro
SW Gulf Coast: Sarasota to Keys

I'm not completely useless. I can always serve as a bad example.


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PostPosted: Sat Mar 21, 2009 11:53 am 
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Quote:
Not to say that I am not listening though... I am, we are.


Dismissive... no, I don't think so, but a bit of reality from time to time. I may get frustrated by the many differing opinions, but I keep an eye out for the real issues. I have already asked our engineers for hatch reviews. The recessed and non-shedding issue of the Twist-n-Seal hatch has been mentioned. I have passed along the concern for water, sand and scales forming around and above the seal ... that then drop into the hull and or foul the o-ring.

We always try to improve.

As far as the forward hatch seals. No, nothing new yet. We are looking at some new processes / equipment that may allow us to better bond seals to the hulls.

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Matt Miller
Director of Parts and Accessory Sales
Hobie Cat USA


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PostPosted: Sat Mar 21, 2009 12:00 pm 
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Don't feel left out, Tom. Feel BLESSED.

Sometimes when I hear people say, "it is not a problem" or "...our sales are much higher..." or something to that effect, I wonder. I wonder what they would say if they had electronic equipment or camera equipment in the AI hull, AND, it was salt water coming through those hatches. I wonder if they would be quite so sanquine.

But, to get back to the real world...
(I apologize for not turning these images 90 deg counterclockwise so they would be closer to the way we usually look at them.)

Here is a profile EDGE VIEW of a Twist-n-Seal hatch cover. It has a properly seated o-ring. Image

This is a view of the o-ring groove sans o-ring. Image

This is a view of a twisted o-ring. Image

The Twist-n-Seal hatch cover may be a good selling point, although I doubt it would have too much effect on sales. Frankly, I can see where it would have a negative effect if people thought it leaked too much.

Hobie needs to re-design that o-ring and the groove. The ring twists too easily, causing the hatch to leak, and the whole hatch cover is too easily compromized by sand.

In fact it is quite simple to come up with a new o-ring design and a new groove design to prevent the twisting. But, that is not enough. There should be a new, more efficient design, AND, THERE SHOULD BE 2 OF THEM IN EACH COVER FOR A DOUBLE SEAL. Further, the hatch cover should have a drain feature, so it would shed water.

Keith

_________________
I sail: Biscayne Bay, Everglades to Cape Romano, Ft Desoto, Cedar Key

"Any intelligent fool can make things bigger and more complex ... It takes a touch of genius and a lot of courage to move in the opposite direction." A. Einstein


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