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PostPosted: Sat Mar 21, 2009 1:09 pm 
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Joined: Fri Aug 11, 2006 6:34 pm
Posts: 138
Location: Northern VA
Water in the hull. An issue that is definitely near & dear to my heart, and at the same time, a royal pain in the neck for my dealer! I've been, shall we say, a little bit vocal about this one.

I was the one referenced above who replaced the original gasket on the forward hatch with gasket materials I found in an automotive glass equipment catalog. I did it mainly because the gasket portion of the original kept coming unglued from the channel portion. I felt that a significant amount of water was coming in through that opening. http://www.hobiecat.com/community/viewt ... highlight=

After replacing the forward hatch gasket I didn't expect the water problem to disappear completely, but I did expect it to diminish. It did reduce the leakage some, but not nearly enough. I still had water in the hull, even under conditions with little or no water washing across the deck. I'm planning a fairly lengthy trip across Lake Erie this summer (conditions & schedule allowing), and the leakage I'm experiencing makes that a no-go at this point. I, and my dealer's service dept have gone through and tightened everything that can be tightened. We've also checked the seat peg divots, and the Mirage Drive well. They both appeared to be undamaged. I had not considered the Twist-n-Seal hatch, other than tightening the screws.

It's not really prime sailing season on the Chesapeake Bay yet, but I'll be looking very closely at that O-ring this season. I may see if I can figure out a way to apply an old plumbers trick to use colored toilet tissue to identify the path the leaking water is taking. As the water flows past the colored paper, it rinses the dye out of the paper at that location. White paper shows the path of the leak. Hopefully we can figure out where these leaks are occurring, and get them taken care of soon.

Happy Sailing,
- Jim L


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 Post subject: Hatch Leakage!!!
PostPosted: Sat Mar 21, 2009 1:33 pm 
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Joined: Sun Jul 08, 2007 6:39 pm
Posts: 101
Location: Venice, Florida
Matt,

You're correct about different opinions--that's why I feel the leakage issue was dismissed.

Got my AI 7/07 and had no real problems other than leakage that has allowed enough sea water in to float dry bags in the bow hatch area. These bags keep things dry from small amounts of water sloshing around, but when 3 or 4 gallons get in its more than they can handle. My 220#s, a 50 qt cooler, and other heavy items in the back keep the bow high enough so a "small amount" of water in the stern wouldn't be a problem. The amount of leakage we're getting is probably a lot more than I think Hobie would feel was acceptable.

The front hatch seal is not a problem. Also, the rudder line tubes have been sealed good so they're no longer a problem. Don't find holes anywhere else. So, still suspect T&S hatches to be the culprit.

Like I said earlier, "Are we expecting too much? Maybe? But like other nuisances; e.g., non-sailing rudder/rudder kick-up/rudder pin design, main sail seating pin/cup reversal, drive masts backing out, etc, etc, are issues Hobie and boat owners worked out together.

I feel guilty I let Keith take all the heat on this. I've been patient--but now expect the leakage issue to be taken more seriously.

Thanks.

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Polecat
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Hobie AI & WS Tempest 180 Pro
SW Gulf Coast: Sarasota to Keys

I'm not completely useless. I can always serve as a bad example.


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PostPosted: Sat Mar 21, 2009 2:44 pm 
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Joined: Fri Sep 19, 2008 4:07 pm
Posts: 400
Location: CLEARWATER, MN
Couldn't the flat twist&seal hatches be slightly dome shaped? High enough
in the middle to shed water. The twist&seal handle fold-down T-depression
could then be raised with a 'drain-slot' running to the outer edge.
The twist&seal screw shaft would have to be a little longer.

I don't see any problem with a bulging hatch shape. The forward one
sits between and below my knees. I never carry anything on top
of the rear hatch, so a bulge there wouldn't bother anything either.


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sat Mar 21, 2009 3:25 pm 
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Joined: Tue Jun 19, 2007 6:14 pm
Posts: 1886
Location: South Florida
Excellent idea, Tidalwave. My only caution to Hobie would be to not make it too "bulging" because some of us, on longer days, have to slide forward to relieve ourselves via the drive opening.

Keith

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I sail: Biscayne Bay, Everglades to Cape Romano, Ft Desoto, Cedar Key

"Any intelligent fool can make things bigger and more complex ... It takes a touch of genius and a lot of courage to move in the opposite direction." A. Einstein


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sat Mar 21, 2009 7:35 pm 
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Joined: Thu Apr 26, 2007 9:57 am
Posts: 222
Location: Phuket, Thailand
Chekika wrote:
Philip,

The quote you attribute to me is not mine.



My appologies, Keith. I was just suprised, sounded so unlike you, thats because it wasnt you. Silly me :oops:


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sat Mar 21, 2009 7:54 pm 
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Joined: Mon Dec 01, 2008 4:55 pm
Posts: 84
Location: Pensacola, Fl.
I have had my AI out about a dozen times since getting it on December 31. Sometimes I was out in really rough weather with lots of water over the bow and other areas. I have not had a single drop of water inside the hull. Perhaps I am just very lucky.

But if I did have problems I would hold a hose over the forward hatch then check, then both other hatches and then check. This will tell you exactly where the water is coming in. After all, before you can address the problem you must find out exactly where the water is coming in.

Ron P.


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 Post subject: Hatch Leakage!!!
PostPosted: Sat Mar 21, 2009 8:19 pm 
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Joined: Sun Jul 08, 2007 6:39 pm
Posts: 101
Location: Venice, Florida
Hey Ron,

Pleeeeeease give us credit for performing leak tests discussed on this forum before ever bringing up the matter. Pleeeeeease!!!

Thank you.

_________________
Polecat
------------------
Hobie AI & WS Tempest 180 Pro
SW Gulf Coast: Sarasota to Keys

I'm not completely useless. I can always serve as a bad example.


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sun Mar 22, 2009 12:45 am 
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Joined: Wed Dec 07, 2005 11:04 pm
Posts: 615
Location: Hawaii, Big Island
Jim

When I crossed the Alenuihaha Channel last summer (20 knot + winds), both myself and my partner stopped to pump about every hour or two.

You can pump what comes in fairly fast with a hand pump. Took about 5 minutes or so to get water level in hull down to a sailing level (inch or so). You will know she's got too much water in her when the nose takes time to come up after being buried.

Just have some sort of cover to surround the pump (using middle hatch) to keep any swell from coming in between the pump shaft and hatch .

I was amazed how little water did come in the cockpit once you stop sailing. Like sitting on a cork (swells were 5-6, maybe 7 feet.)

If I get a chance will try your gasket material. But did it work better than the original Hobie stuff?

Aloha

Dan

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PostPosted: Sun Mar 22, 2009 4:57 am 
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Joined: Tue Jun 19, 2007 6:14 pm
Posts: 1886
Location: South Florida
Apology accepted, Philip. I do understand Quirkster's frustration.

Returning to Tidalwave's original question:
TIDALWAVE wrote:
Has any one ever determined why some hulls get more water than others?

One explanation is noted by Yakaholic who wrote:
I think if you oiled the "o" ring w/ the proper lube, make sure it is seated and free of dirt and closed the hatch it would not leak. Until the next time you open the hatch - which twists the "o" ring and gets dirt on the seal.

My wife goes out in same conditions as me but never opens her T&S hatches, which have been properly detwisted, oiled, cleaned and sealed. She never gets water in her hull.

There are some obvious factors: (1) if you have a leak or leaks, the more time on the water, the more water you take on. I've been on short trips (1-2 hrs) and taken on little water. (2) if conditions are such that water is not regularly washing over your "leak site," you will take on little water. (3) Leaks may develop around fittings. So, as users, we do need to check things and tighten things up--it is called "maintenance" (careful, that is an 11-letter word around me.)

I remember one trip where we tacked into 16-18 mph winds for 4-5 hrs. The 3 of us had 1-3 gal of water in our hulls. On the return after a couple days, running before the same wind with the bow being forced under water regularly, I took on very little water. The return trip took about 2 hrs.

Then, there are use-specific problems. Those of us, who camp in S FL, are hassled by raccoons. These beasts insist on doing their partying all over the upper surface of our hulls every night. They particularly like the T&S hatches for dances--a duet on the center and rear hatches is a favorite. Consequently, after one night out, our hatches are covered with sand, which inevitably gets into the seal.

Fishermen, who are in the habit of chucking their catch into the center T&S hatch, will have scales and slime all over the place. That center hatch is going to leak badly.

Darwinian, since you do not apparently have leaks, or do not open your T&S hatches regularly, or sail in conditions that will make leaks effective, you have not tried to pressurize your hull. That is not as simple a task as it may seem. Fortunately, there are other ways to check for leaks. At the same time, we would like not to have to set up some contraption to check for leaks before every trip.

Keith

_________________
I sail: Biscayne Bay, Everglades to Cape Romano, Ft Desoto, Cedar Key

"Any intelligent fool can make things bigger and more complex ... It takes a touch of genius and a lot of courage to move in the opposite direction." A. Einstein


Last edited by Chekika on Sun Mar 22, 2009 6:50 am, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sun Mar 22, 2009 6:03 am 
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Joined: Fri Aug 11, 2006 6:34 pm
Posts: 138
Location: Northern VA
Hi Dan,

AlohaDan wrote:
Jim

When I crossed the Alenuihaha Channel last summer (20 knot + winds), both myself and my partner stopped to pump about every hour or two.



I was very excited when I read your report of the Alenuihaha Channel crossing. It's part of what made me realize that the Lake Erie crossing (Erie, PA, USA, to Port Dover, Ontario, Canada) is actually quite doable.

I guess I've been so focused on eliminating the leaking (my boat consistently takes on more water than Glenn_Southriver's AI does... Sometimes SIGNIFICANTLY more.) that I hadn't thought much about pumping while at sea. I have done that a couple times when it got noticeably full.

AlohaDan wrote:

If I get a chance will try your gasket material. But did it work better than the original Hobie stuff?

Aloha

Dan


I do think the new hatch gasket seals better than the original one did. More importantly, the gasket tubing is attached to the mounting channel. The Hobie gasket, on the other hand has the rubber/foam tubing glued to the mounting channel, and that kept coming unglued. I tried several different methods to reattach it on both boats (partial list in the other thread), but all came unglued. At least that part of the problem should be resolved. The only drawback to the new material is that since the gasket is now thicker, this makes the opening into the hull a little bit smaller. Not a lot, but some.

Happy Sailing,
- Jim L


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 Post subject: Re: Hatch Leakage!!!
PostPosted: Sun Mar 22, 2009 7:09 am 
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Joined: Wed Dec 19, 2007 4:07 am
Posts: 598
Location: Punta Gorda, FL
Polecat wrote:
Hey Tom!

About the leaks, you're not gonna have a problem back on the creeks in the backwaters of the Peace River, but if you loaded up the boat for a multi-day trip and were sailing across wide open bays between the far out coastal islands of the ENP in the Gulf for 5-6 hours sometimes against high winds and seas you'd see what Keith and I are experiencing.


We never get any water inside the boats when sailing up in the creeks. We have gotten a bit of water when sailing through waves out in the harbor, just not much.

I agree with the suggestion to use paper towels and also food coloring to trace leaks to the source.

I agree with Keith that a double seal would be better than a single, and that it would be nice if the hatch would shed water.


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 Post subject: Sitting in water...
PostPosted: Mon Mar 23, 2009 11:05 am 
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Joined: Fri Sep 19, 2008 4:07 pm
Posts: 400
Location: CLEARWATER, MN
I have the optional Hobie self-inflating seat, and I still kept
sitting in water, which came over the sides. I removed the seat scupper drain plugs and put waterproof tape under the seat scuppers to act as
venturis. This did suck out water from under the seat about 50% of the
time. But if I am sailing on a broad reach with fairly large waves
moving forward under me, the seat scuppers with the tape want
to act as small fountains!
Someone mentioned inserting one-way check valves in the seat scuppers.
Did anyone successfully install them? If so, please reply in the forum, how they worked and where to buy them.


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